Abysmal on 30/1/2007 at 20:12
How would Artemus know? To the common folk he may be "dead", but only the Pagans know for sure, and they are clearly worshiping him again and using his powers in the next two games. You don't really kill a god.
We see more proof of the Trickster's existence in all 3 games than we ever do of the Builder (has his presence EVER been clearly evident in the game? All I can recall are the magical hammers the priests cast).
Elentari on 30/1/2007 at 20:43
Quote:
How would Artemus know? To the common folk he may be "dead", but only the Pagans know for sure, and they are clearly worshiping him again and using his powers in the next two games. You don't really kill a god.
Plus they did clearly state that the Keepers glyphs failed them past the time of the activation of the final glyph. They were entering what they called 'the Dark Age' (or something like that) They could no longer see into the future past that point. So, how would they know if he was truly dead? They can't look forward to find out if he returns or not. Like the common people, they are stuck waiting to see what happens.
I still think its most likely that they *think* he's dead. After all it did appear so. But then. . .was anyone really able to get in there and double check? Did Garrett? Not by anything I saw. He just gets out of there (I'd still like to know how he gets out of the Maw that first time. :P) and goes back to report their ruse worked. The Pagans obviously got in there at some point and started living in there. Isn't it well possible they also did something that means he's no longer dead. As stated, they are clearly still worshipping him and using his power. . .and Viktoria does not seem that. . .angry at Garrett for 'killing' her master.
I still think that the Trickster was merely stopped and it'll be awhile before he tries anything again. A hundred years? Five hundred? But awhile.
And no, there's been no evidence that the builder actually exists. ON the other hand. . .I don't see that any mere technology the Hammers could have created could have stopped the Trickster, either. He was clearly something other than a human and you'd think it would take something else similar to him to stop him. Perhaps they did use the Builder's power to set up the trap Garrett used. Though nothing actually states that.
Palantir on 31/1/2007 at 02:47
Well, let's see...
First, Constantine attempted to SUMMON the Trickster.
=> Constantine is not the Trickster
Then, Garrett swaped The Eye with a false one WHILE Constantine was summoning the Trickster.
And the false Eye caused a deadly blow thus killed Constatine or Constantine-Trickstride.
=>Constantine--dead, Trickster--maybe dead.
This makes sense.:idea:
jtr7 on 31/1/2007 at 03:55
Not every bit of information is accurate or even correct. Randy Smith even told us they purposely built-in misinformation. To this day, people still misspell "Viktoria" with a "c," for instance, because "Bafford" (who wanted to know more about her, and he didn't know much) misspelled it first, and then "Dominic" (who clearly had grammar deficiencies to begin with), and then whomever the author of Ramirez's dossier was.:erg:
Creating misinformation was also a clever way to hide the actual developers' mistakes, and further adds realism.:cool:
So it's not a good argument to say that anybody OTHER than those who knew the Trickster PERSONALLY could know the truth.:)
Muzman on 31/1/2007 at 07:46
you guys saw the scene. How many would actually know he is dead? The wider Pagan community might have no idea. Banished, defeated, bound; any explanation might suffice.
As for knowingly worshipping dead people; well there was this guy called Jesus...
jtr7 on 31/1/2007 at 08:56
Heh heh, Muzman....
Now, if the final objective had been to bring the Trickster's corpse back to the Hammers....
Anyway, Christians don't believe they are worshipping a dead guy, we believe in the resurrection, and ascension, right? ;)
So far, we haven't heard the Hammers make that claim about the Builder, nor have we heard the Pagan express any knowledge of the Trickster's demise. And in TDS, doesn't somebody--maybe Larkspur--remark that they miss Viktoria?
Jusal on 31/1/2007 at 10:17
Quote Posted by jtr7
So far, we haven't heard the Hammers make that claim about the Builder, nor have we heard the Pagan express any knowledge of the Trickster's demise. And in TDS, doesn't somebody--maybe Larkspur--remark that they miss Viktoria?
Not exactly. It reads in a note written by Dyan unless I'm mistaken.
CD Set on 31/1/2007 at 13:21
Quote Posted by Ominous cowl
Well, that leaves a big question: TDS releaved that the appareance of undead entities, such as zombies, haunts and glowing mushrooms actually originated from pagan rituals. If their source of power has truly been destroyed, there must exist another explanation for the corpse's unrest. The zombie infestation in the catacombs (TDP-mis3), on the other hand, did not seem to have
any advantage for the pagans - except for testing purposes.
So, with keeping in mind that Keepers are prone to make mistakes as well - it is quite likely that the Trickster is not dead. He might eventually return in another form - maybe as a zombie, now as he is "dead".
I get what you mean, but I still stand by the fact that the Trickster's dead. Since the developers and writers 'decide' whether the Trickster will come back or not, we will probably never get the answer but seeing how he never returned in the sequels, I like to believe he's truly gone.
On another note, regarding the 'powers' that the Pagans still possess: I always thought that the source of their power was the Maw itself (or something within it). Viktoria herself seemed quite upset after TDP and according to herself, wanted to "redeem the death of a friend". She would probably have known if he survived. Besides, if the Tricksters death ultimately stripped away the Pagans' powers, wouldn't Viktoria be unable to use her 'vine powers'?
Slither on 31/1/2007 at 13:26
What's the big deal? It's certainly not the first time people have worshipped a dead guy. Fanatics are limited only by imagination.
Abysmal on 31/1/2007 at 14:26
I still maintain that he was only banished. Else there wouldn't be bits like in TDS where you have to use the Trickster's amulet to unbind the pump house; it's clear that his presence is still around.
The great thing is that there's no solid answer, LGS leaves many of these avenues open for speculation rather than feeding you the answer to everything.
