The Shroud on 15/11/2009 at 03:58
Keyholes in Thief's setting are relatively large, not at all like our tiny modern-day keyholes. It makes sense that a thief like Garrett (or any thief really) would take advantage of this to peer through a door's keyhole into the room beyond without exposing himself. So, how would the control for it work? Here's an idea:
Approaching a door, the player first crouches and then leans forward against the lock. The view would then center on the lock and zoom into a closeup of the keyhole (regardless of whether the player was in 1st or 3rd person view) as Garrett positions his eye (probably his right eye - the mechanical one) level with the keyhole. Once in this view, the player could then opt to zoom in even closer with Garrett's mechanical eye to survey what can be seen of the room beyond. Hitting the backpedal key would cancel out of this view.
This could also come in handy for picking locks - a new lock-picking scheme could be devised whereby the player actually sees the interior of the lock itself with this closeup view, and manipulates the picks carefully to set the tumblers.
Thoughts?
jtr7 on 15/11/2009 at 04:48
No thanks to automated/guided movement.
No thanks to anything that never mattered or that the ears can't do better.
No thanks to forcing scenarios to make it worth the devs' efforts.
No thanks to yet another thing to frob on a door.
No thanks to something that will only work if the devs place a person to be seen in that view, which again, the ears have done better.
No thanks to continued ideas that serve more of a visual component than audio and elegant gameplay.
No thanks to ideas that take development time away from the core mechanics.
Thank you.
Namdrol on 15/11/2009 at 07:36
I think you would get only a very limited view through a keyhole due to the thickness of the doors.
And the chances of what you want to see being right in front of the door would be very small.
Unless of course it's scripted, but how many times would this happen before it gets very tired?
The Shroud on 15/11/2009 at 08:48
Quote Posted by jtr7
No thanks to automated/guided movement.
What, just to zoom in? TDS already does this sort of thing when the player begins picking a lock.
Quote Posted by jtr7
No thanks to anything that never mattered or that the ears can't do better.
Surely you can agree that there are some pretty important things the ears can't tell you which the eyes can. And it's not as if I'm suggesting you
shouldn't be able to hear through doors anymore. This is pretty much the same principle scouting orbs were based on - viewing a place without endangering yourself of being seen.
Quote Posted by jtr7
No thanks to forcing scenarios to make it worth the devs' efforts.
I don't even know what you're talking about with this one. Forcing
what scenarios?
Quote Posted by jtr7
No thanks to yet another thing to frob on a door.
I didn't suggest frobbing it. I just suggested leaning toward it. Is that somehow overly complicated?
Quote Posted by jtr7
No thanks to something that will only work if the devs place a person to be seen in that view, which again, the ears have done better.
Who says there has to be a person to see? There are all sorts of details you might be able to catch a glimpse of in a room that could potentially benefit your decision-making during gameplay.
Quote Posted by jtr7
No thanks to continued ideas that serve more of a visual component than audio and elegant gameplay.
I really don't understand this passionate opposition to an idea that really could fit very well into the stealth theme. Audio over visual? Is there some sort of contest between the two? Can't
both coexist happily? Come on now. And what's so inelegant about peering through a keyhole?
Quote Posted by jtr7
No thanks to ideas that take development time away from the core mechanics.
Time-management and prioritizing is not really something we have to worry about as fans. I mean, that's what a development team
does - decide which ideas they can afford to implement and which they can't. Will they have time to put this in? Who knows? All we need to do is decide whether an idea is good, or bad - not whether there's enough time to spend on it.
Bakerman on 16/11/2009 at 10:28
Quote:
or that the ears can't do better
Like... seeing?
I'd say it could be interesting, but it could also add complexity to the controls (if you still need to lean into a door to listen to it, which I think is a cool idea). Its use would be a bit limited, but I do agree that there are situations where I'd like to be able to see through a door. But maybe this purpose could be better served by allowing Penumbra-style door controls, allowing the player to open them as much or as little as they liked, so they could peek through the gap. This doesn't add new functionality, just builds on tasks you already need to do.
The Shroud on 16/11/2009 at 17:27
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I'd say it could be interesting, but it could also add complexity to the controls (if you still need to lean into a door to listen to it, which I think is a cool idea).
Well since you'd need to place your ear against the door to listen through it, you could use the left and right lean keys to listen at doors, and the forward lean key to peer through the keyhole.
Bakerman on 16/11/2009 at 21:11
That's fair enough, and a good idea.
New Horizon on 17/11/2009 at 05:00
It's not that simple. Like TDS, for this to work...the player would have to be 'sucked' into place like they were for lockpicking...all the doors/locks would have to be at a uniform level. This would likely mean that all locks would be in the middle of doors again to ensure the player can always reach the key hole...yadda yadda. In other words, you have to sacrifice certain level design and player control freedom for a very minor feature that would simply be...'kewl'. Do you really think you would see a hell of a lot through a key hole anyway?
The Shroud on 17/11/2009 at 05:36
Quote Posted by New Horizon
It's not that simple. Like TDS, for this to work...the player would have to be 'sucked' into place like they were for lockpicking...
That's true, but this could be mitigated by only having the keyhole-view activate if the player is already mostly in position - i.e. they've already crouched in front of the door and basically centered the lock in their view (maybe off by a few inches or whatnot) before leaning in, so that the "sucking in" effect is negligible. I'm talking about a snap that's far less drastic than the drag-in of Garrett's body when initiating lockpicking in TDS.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
all the doors/locks would have to be at a uniform level.
Again, true - but I do not see this as a problem, since in reality, most doors' locks
would be at a pretty uniform level.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
This would likely mean that all locks would be in the middle of doors again to ensure the player can always reach the key hole...yadda yadda.
Why? Just because TDS was that way with lockpicking? It shouldn't be difficult for the player to align their view with a door's lock. The only obstacle to leaning forward would be the doorframe - and if the player's collision-model is given a realistically-sized head, the doorframe shouldn't impede them any more than it would impede a person doing the same thing in real life.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Do you really think you would see a hell of a lot through a key hole anyway?
Remember, this wouldn't be a modern keyhole - keyholes are pretty large in Thief. It's true that you wouldn't see
a hell of a lot but you definitely would see a little, and that might be all you need to deduce something useful about the room you're looking into. This is the sort of thing that would capitalize on a player's attention to detail - some might be able to piece together quite a bit from just a narrow glimpse. It would be an opportunity for them to use their deductive reasoning abilities.
Namdrol on 17/11/2009 at 07:52
To repeat-
You'd only be able to see anything worthwhile if it was scripted by devs because your field of view would be so restricted.
And how many rooms would there be something placed that you could see before it seemed very tired?
(Though I think opening the door a crack to steal a glance is a worthwhile thing to implement.)
