Bakerman on 17/11/2009 at 12:33
Quote:
Like TDS, for this to work...the player would have to be 'sucked' into place like they were for lockpicking...all the doors/locks would have to be at a uniform level.
Let me again argue from the standpoint that body awareness will not be implemented in T4. Would it then be acceptable to have Garrett 'blink' and his eye to transition directly to a keyhole view? Then it wouldn't matter whether animations lined up. Sort of like a zoom scope in an FPS - you don't watch the character move their head down to the scope, you just cut straight to the scoped view.
I still think what little you could see through a keyhole *could* be valuable in some situations, even non-scripted ones. I won't try to provide examples, because they'd probably be quite involved.
The Shroud on 17/11/2009 at 19:13
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Let me again argue from the standpoint that body awareness will not be implemented in T4. Would it then be acceptable to have Garrett 'blink' and his eye to transition directly to a keyhole view? Then it wouldn't matter whether animations lined up. Sort of like a zoom scope in an FPS - you don't watch the character move their head down to the scope, you just cut straight to the scoped view.
Good point. It would be just like the transition in Thief 2 when switching to a scouting orb's view.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I still think what little you could see through a keyhole *could* be valuable in some situations, even non-scripted ones. I won't try to provide examples, because they'd probably be quite involved.
Agreed. One payoff which I think has been overlooked is that if you are able to safely "preview" a room to a limited degree, then the devs
won't be forced to always make sure the room's occupants make some noise to alert the player to their presence. This is not to say I'm against that happening from time to time - far from it, I like that element - but just as
always seeing a guard (or a person's shadow) through every keyhole would get silly after a while, the same applies to
always hearing some telltale cue through the door. This would mean it would behoove players to use
all their senses - sound
and sight - to discern whether it's safe to crack the door open without anyone noticing.
jtr7 on 18/11/2009 at 00:56
Why is this desired if not for something different and kewl? Did you guys really get disappointed that the other games didn't have this? Seriously, other things are much more important than developing this and designing ways to use it just because. I'd rather there was more transparent glass and "real" windows, where walking by outside, one could see silhouettes or the AIs within, for instance. How many different uses for a door do we need?
How about the iris of Garrett's mech-eye telescoping forward through the keyhole for a 180 view up, down, left, right, forward, and all points in between?
But really, it would be better if the armored AIs sounded like they were armored and could be heard even just making their idle motions, even though their mutterings, coughing, yawning, sneezing, humming, whistling, and snoring were always effective enough.
I also understand that peering through keyholes is effectively a power-up, making the game easier, and if it was balanced, it would actually make it a waste of development time anyway. Any game mechanic added will translate to changes in level design to justify it. I'd much rather listen to conversations.
New Horizon on 18/11/2009 at 01:56
Here's a little experiment for all you keyhole experts.
Fold a piece of paper in half. Cut a small keyhole sized hole in it. Then fold the paper in such a way that the two holes are approximately the width of a door apart. Put your eye up to it and take a look through. remember that you can't change your view...you're locked in this position. All you can do is rotate your eye around. Not much to look at.
jtr7 on 18/11/2009 at 01:58
Yep. The ears will give the best sense of the room. Too many Hollywood scenarios are being thought of. Hollywood's less accurate than Wikipedia.
It would add less real gameplay than a Scouting Orb, and at best, it would only be a novelty. It's one of those things that matters most on the first playthrough, diminishing as the player gains skill and memorizes terrain and AI placement.
Bakerman on 18/11/2009 at 03:00
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Here's a little experiment for all you keyhole experts.
Don't forget that if you move your eye back and around a little, you can get slightly more field of view. I had a peep through some keyholes at my house, and I'd imagine Thiefy keyholes would be slightly larger (though maybe doors would be thicker as well).
Quote Posted by jtr7
The ears will give the best sense of the room. Too many Hollywood scenarios are being thought of. Hollywood's less accurate than Wikipedia.
Ears give you no sense of a room whatsoever, only the characters who are close enough to the door and conveniently making noise. Looking through a keyhole could give you an idea of the depth of a room (whether you're walking into a broom-closet or leaving the house - though you should already know that), and for smaller or medium-sized locations, the amount of light in the room.
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It's one of those things that matters most on the first playthrough, diminishing as the player gains skill and memorizes terrain and AI placement.
I would be perfectly fine with that. If I replay a mission and have it easy because I've memorised the AI patrols and level layout, I feel like a cheater. Garrett can't save and reload, and nor does he get another try - I always like to roleplay a little and recon the place, visit all the possible routes before picking the one I already knew was best, etc. If I had more tools to make my first playthrough easier, doing everything to get Garrett through alive, I'd welcome that. If only every playthrough were a first playthrough.
The Shroud on 18/11/2009 at 06:15
Quote Posted by jtr7
Why is this desired if not for something different and kewl?
Honestly it's because it's something I can see myself doing in Garrett's position, and I'd like to take advantage of anything that might stand to benefit my decisions during gameplay.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Did you guys really get disappointed that the other games didn't have this?
I wouldn't say that I was
really disappointed - just a little. More of a "too bad I can't do that" than a "this game sucks because I can't do that" reaction.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Seriously, other things are much more important than developing this...
I can agree with that. I still think the idea has merit but I'm not going to argue that it's
more important than a lot of other things. On the other hand, we don't know that it would necessarily detract from development of, say...an engaging ambiance, compelling story, or other such essentials to Thief. To clarify, the point I'm making is - yes, I agree it's not on the very top of the list,
and no, I don't think it
necessarily has to conflict with development of the things that are top priority. There might be enough time to implement it, there might not - ultimately, that will be the purvey of the developers so I'm not concerning myself with it. Obviously, they can easily decide whether it's feasible or not. I'm only interested in discussing whether the idea itself has merit.
Quote Posted by jtr7
I'd rather there was more transparent glass and "real" windows, where walking by outside, one could see silhouettes or the AIs within, for instance.
Much agreed! And if it came down to having one or the other, but not both, then yes - I'd definitely opt for real windows.
Quote Posted by jtr7
How many different uses for a door do we need?
As many as can benefit stealth gameplay?
Quote Posted by jtr7
But really, it would be better if the armored AIs sounded like they were armored
Yes.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and could be heard even just making their idle motions
Not really sure about that one.
Quote Posted by jtr7
even though their mutterings, coughing, yawning, sneezing, humming, whistling, and snoring were always effective enough.
Surely you can agree there'd be plenty of times a guard or other individual wouldn't mutter, cough, yawn, sneeze, hum, whistle, or snore?
Quote Posted by jtr7
I also understand that peering through keyholes is effectively a power-up, making the game easier, and if it was balanced, it would actually make it a waste of development time anyway. Any game mechanic added will translate to changes in level design to justify it.
Strongly disagree here. Just look at the numerous items Garrett was provided in previous games which weren't ever expressly required because the missions were designed
without specific assets in mind. The options were just there for players to choose them or not as they liked, depending on their individual style. And people really
liked that freedom. After all, isn't that what this, and any other existing or suggested asset/ability is about - freedom? That's what it's about to me anyhow.
Quote Posted by jtr7
I'd much rather listen to conversations.
Well, conversations are great. I love em. But the fact is, they wouldn't always happen. When they do, you know that there's at least two people in a room past a door, and approximately how close they are, perhaps even roughly how large the room is if you pay attention to the reverberation of their voices - but you still
don't know some very important details, like (for example) which way they're facing, how light/dark the room is, whether it's just those two people or if there are others in there as well, etc, etc. Those are things which, if known, could make the difference between you foolishly opening the door (even just a crack, if that's implemented) and someone noticing, or wisely opting to move on. What if you spotted another door through the keyhole? That alone would tell you that you don't
have to enter the room from the door you're crouched outside (which might very likely result in your being noticed) and that moving on and finding another way in is, in fact, an option. And this is all taking into account that you
do overhear a conversation - what if you don't?
The point here is that the player has the potential to become better informed with a quick little glimpse. That information can make a difference - perhaps a big difference - in what they decide to do next. And that is meaningful gameplay.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
All you can do is rotate your eye around. Not much to look at.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Yep. The ears will give the best sense of the room. Too many Hollywood scenarios are being thought of. Hollywood's less accurate than Wikipedia.
Peering through keyholes is not something Hollywood made up. I've done it before. My father's done it (haven't asked my mother). Lots of people have. And that's
modern-day keyholes. We're talking about a setting in which keyholes were much, much larger than they are now, and no, this increased size was not significantly negated by the thickness of doors. It may not be ideal, but it's not negligible either.
Quote Posted by jtr7
It would add less real gameplay than a Scouting Orb
I disagree for reasons stated above.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and at best, it would only be a novelty. It's one of those things that matters most on the first playthrough, diminishing as the player gains skill and memorizes terrain and AI placement.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I would be perfectly fine with that. If I replay a mission and have it easy because I've memorised the AI patrols and level layout, I feel like a cheater. Garrett can't save and reload, and nor does he get another try - I always like to roleplay a little and recon the place, visit all the possible routes before picking the one I already knew was best, etc.
Yes! You and me both. It's good to see I'm not the only one who plays that way.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
If I had more tools to make my first playthrough easier, doing everything to get Garrett through alive, I'd welcome that. If only every playthrough were a first playthrough.
Very well said.
jtr7 on 18/11/2009 at 07:46
Bakerman. You have a track record of denying things others take for granted. Something wrong with your ears, too?:tsktsk:
You also shouldn't be fine with adding more things with diminishing returns that are redundant and very limited to begin with.
Once again, were you really that handicapped in the games? :weird: Are you trying to reduce tension and difficulty, or what? Or are you also going to suggest band-aid fixes for the devs to also work on to put tension and difficulty back in?
Bakerman on 18/11/2009 at 12:06
Quote Posted by jtr7
Bakerman. You have a track record of denying things others take for granted. Something wrong with your ears, too?:tsktsk:
What did I do this time?
Quote:
Are you trying to reduce tension and difficulty, or what? Or are you also going to suggest band-aid fixes for the devs to also work on to put tension and difficulty back in?
I don't think tension and difficulty need to be created 'artificially'. It could create tension and difficulty to put Garrett in a wheelchair, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Conversely, rejecting an idea that is plausible and even likely (I don't agree that keyhole-peeping is a Hollywood invention) just because it would alleviate even a small amount of tension and difficulty doesn't seem like the cleverest approach.
The Shroud on 18/11/2009 at 18:35
Quote Posted by jtr7
Bakerman. You have a track record of denying things others take for granted. Something wrong with your ears, too?:tsktsk:
Can we avoid the personal goading this time around? Please? Bakerman hasn't been doing that to you and you shouldn't do it to him.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Are you trying to reduce tension and difficulty, or what?
On the contrary, tension is not our enemy, nor difficulty. If they were, then
all our ideas would be centered around a desire to make the game easier and less tense. I'll let Bakerman speak for himself, but at least in my case, for every idea I'd like to see implemented that might make the game easier in one respect, there's another (or several) I'd like to see that would make things harder in another respect. Ease and difficulty, in and of themselves, are not my primary motivators.
For instance, back when we were all debating what should be implemented in Thief 3, I was a strong proponent of taking away Garrett's click-clacky boots and moss arrows as well -
but at the same time, I wanted creaky floor boards, rusty grates, old and cracked tiles, etc. And I still feel the same way.
I'm not coming at this from the standpoint of making the game easier
or harder in the long run - but rather crafting both aspects (ease and difficulty) more sensibly. In the same way that a thief wearing clumsy boots is absurd, and thus needing to rely on arrows that spread moss-patches is a silly and unnecessary contrivance, rejecting keyhole-peering on the basis that it will remove tension and difficulty is also unwarranted. As I've always said - for every idea that makes the game easier, there's another that makes it harder:
Softer-soled boots countered by realistically noisy floors.
Increased abilities countered by AI awareness to player-shadows and silhouettes.
Quiet door-opening/closing countered by increased AI hearing.
Keyhole-peering countered by AI awareness to cracked-open doors/light streaming in.
You get the idea. This is the viewpoint I'm coming from.
