jtr7 on 19/11/2009 at 03:08
What did you do now, Bakerman? I gave you a rather large hint.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Ears give you no sense of a room whatsoever...
Wrong. You don't need eyes to tell you someone's in the room, and your ears (maybe not?) can tell if an AI is to the left, to the right, near, far, in front, and possibly about to step through. Also, you do know about the ability to press Garrett's ear against a door to hear more clearly, right? I never needed to do that, anyway.
And yes, effective keyhole peeping is a Hollywood trope, borrowed from the real life version that is much more limited than portrayed--they use it a lot and unrealistically... I'm reminded of how they still depict phone conversations with characters on the lam as needing 30-seconds to trace the location, etc., or more closely, the binocular view, 2D, sideways figure-8 overlay. How ever did we ghost the games?
Now the circus begins!
For a minor realism, a keyhole big enough for you to see anything worth seeing means you could be seen, as you would block the light coming through from your side, or if you were in darkness, your eyeball would be lit. Again, the devs would have to ignore that, and also place AIs in front of the field of view to justify making it.
The keyholes in the games were
not big enough to make it worth it in the new game, and again, it never mattered, so why now? Just to make it different? Since the keyholes cannot be made large enough to be useful else they'd look ridiculous, it would be fudged, and like the TDS lockpicking or TMA Scouting Orb, need a key- or button-press to disengage from after taking you out of the world.
A paper tube keyhole, wider and shorter than the keyholes of the older titles:
Inline Image:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/112/keyholetunnelvision.jpgWhat you see:
Inline Image:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5074/keyholefieldofview.jpgWhat you cannot see:
Inline Image:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3604/normalfieldofview.jpgInline Image:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4329/handleslocksdoorwidth.jpgFor it to work without cheesiness, the doors will need to be thin, the locks flush with the door paneling, and/or a big keyhole. A further departure from what the older titles got right.
Remember in the older titles that the keyholes were in the handles of the doors, and there were handles on both sides. The keyholes weren't lined up with the shaft, but we'll ignore that. It was ten-inches from keyhole opening to keyhole opening, and the keyhole was an eighth-of-an-inch wide. I only say this to contend that the keyholes were large enough. Wrap a piece of 8.5-inch paper around a pencil (or three, as I have done). It's shorter and wider than the T1/TG/T2 keyhole view and will give you a slightly broader view.
Now TDS:
(
http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/?action=view¤t=T3_LockTypes.jpg)
Inline Image:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/th_T3_LockTypes.jpgInline Image:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3081/2552549701_53a7235a13.jpgRemember this? The big ol' hole in the stained glass of the Cragscleft temple, and you still have to step sideways to the left to see the third AI that's that far away. Plus they can see you. Shrink it down to a point that doesn't look oversized. Anyway, you will already know they are their from the conversation they are having, and the patrolling Hammer's whistling, chanting, muttering, etc., and footsteps.
Inline Image:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4229/cragsclefttemplepeephol.jpgBut all this is unnecessary. All of it. The keyhole view is not worth the effort and no one can make a compelling argument to justify it and all the changes it would bring for a gimmick, as if Garrett needed more help, and just to be kewl.
Inline Image:
http://medialib.computerandvideogames.com/screens/screenshot_42159_thumb300.jpgReally?
Much better to just bring back the doors with windows and slots, and keyholes in proper places, of proper size--and further evolve Thief's unique use of sound, since that's a real selling point, rather than keyhole peeping. Why the hell were proper
Thief doors done away with in TDS?:mad:
Well, it's been fun over-analyzing the hell out of this. Bottom-line: Too much to for such little value, and one more thing to take time away from more important things. World and character building, NOT these little things that involve a lot. Make more with less, not less with more.
Bakerman on 19/11/2009 at 04:27
Quote Posted by jtr7
Wrong. You don't need eyes to tell you someone's in the room, and your ears (maybe not?) can tell if an AI is to the left, to the right, near, far, in front, and possibly about to step through.
I assume you kept reading my post, and aren't just responsing to my opening handful of words, because I acknowledged that you can hear characters in the room. But you can't hear how well-lit the room is or how deep it is, can you? I said the room itself, not its occupants.
Quote Posted by jtr7
For a minor realism, a keyhole big enough for you to see anything worth seeing means you could be seen, as you would block the light coming through from your side, or if you were in darkness, your eyeball would be lit.
Not the case at my house. Remember that the pupil is designed to absorb light, and any reflection from the outer surface would be completely unnoticeable to someone on the other side even if they did happen to be peering straight into the other end of the keyhole.
Quote Posted by jtr7
The keyholes in the games were
not big enough to make it worth it in the new game, and again, it never mattered, so why now?
I contest that. I can peer through the keyholes at my house and they are quite small. I'd say on the order of half a centimetre across, average. That seems much smaller than I remember then from TDP, which is of course a factor of 3D tech back then not being able to scale down that far.
Quote Posted by jtr7
it would be fudged, and like the TDS lockpicking or TMA Scouting Orb, need a key- or button-press to disengage from after taking you out of the world.
Says who it would? I hope that's not a serious argument, because I can think of plenty of ways to do it that would not interrupt your control at all. As an example... lean forwards into a door -> go to keyhole view. Stop leaning -> normal again. (Which is what we were getting at before, but not that explicitly.) You might lost 1/10 of a second fading out/in again each way, unless they do an instant camera snap, but I don't think that qualifies an unacceptable loss of control.
Quote Posted by jtr7
What you see:
That's pretty useless. I'm glad I can see much more than that when I look through my keyholes.
Quote Posted by jtr7
For it to work without cheesiness, the doors will need to be thin, the locks flush with the door paneling, and/or a big keyhole. A further departure from what the older titles got right.
...
Remember in the older titles that the keyholes were in the handles of the doors, and there were handles on both sides.
Are you seriously going to complain based on the grounds that keyholes would have to be put on the door rather than on the handle? I mean, fair enough, I also thought the original Thief was a great game precisely because of those beautifully aesthetic door-handles with integrated keyhole. And I would also be up in arms if those fantastic, ergonomic designs were changed in the slightest. Keyholes in the door itself? Unheard of.
Quote Posted by jtr7
World and character building, NOT these little things that involve a lot. Make more with less, not less with more.
I do believe that this change would require very little in the way of programming. If I had leaning and doors implemented in my game already, I could probably add this feature within a day, and then take another day to polish and bugfix. And I'm quite willing to believe that a professional programmer might take a lot less time than that.
Also, I highly doubt the programmers are going to be the ones working on world and character building. So there's no manpower wasted in that department. Maybe if they put keyhole-peeping in it would affect the quality of that body-awareness solution they'll all be working on :p.
Echelon5 on 19/11/2009 at 05:08
Man, you guys really take this sort of shit seriously. Good thing I didn't make my thread propsing the idea of chariot races, parkour mechanics, a seduction mini-game, and 20+ upgrades for Garrett's mechanical eye (and bionic arm and leg springs).
Bakerman on 19/11/2009 at 05:32
Damn right. Because if Eidos stabs me in the back and my Thief isn't exactly the way I want it I'll have no option but to lock myself away and not play video games ever again!
That and I just enjoy debate.
Speaking of parkour, though, Garrett could learn how to land a bit more quietly...
New Horizon on 19/11/2009 at 06:05
Jeeze...enough is enough.
For what it's worth, we looked into keyhole peeping in TDM at one point. Ran some tests...badda boom, badda bing. Bottom line, it wasn't worth it. If it had been worth pursuing, it would have been in the beta release. There, that didn't take a full page to say either.
The end.
Bakerman on 19/11/2009 at 06:48
Interesting to know it was tested, I guess no amount of theory can argue with that. Any details you feel like giving? I'm just interested... while of course it's not a game-changer, I thought it'd be nifty to include, since it's a pretty simple thing.
The Shroud on 19/11/2009 at 07:45
Quote Posted by jtr7
You don't need eyes to tell you someone's in the room
That depends on whether they conveniently make noise. If they don't, then you won't know, just like in real life.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and your ears (maybe not?) can tell if an AI is to the left, to the right, near, far, in front, and possibly about to step through.
Again, true only if they make enough noise to discern such things. Anyway, you are focusing entirely on whether or not there's someone in the room, and I previously pointed out several
other useful details you could potentially learn from seeing through a keyhole that might not have anything to do with the room's occupants. I've addressed everything you keep going back to. It really seems as if you're ignoring most, if not all of the important points I've made and focusing strictly on a debate with Bakerman.
Quote Posted by jtr7
And yes, effective keyhole peeping is a Hollywood trope, borrowed from the real life version that is much more limited than portrayed--they use it a lot and unrealistically...
As I said, I've looked through keyholes in real life. I'm not talking about whatever movies you might be referring to. I haven't looked through medieval-sized keyholes, but they would be much larger than modern-day ones (how many times have we said this now?).
Quote Posted by jtr7
For a minor realism, a keyhole big enough for you to see anything worth seeing means you could be seen, as you would block the light coming through from your side, or if you were in darkness, your eyeball would be lit.
First of all, saying that a person is likely to spot your eyeball through a keyhole is really, really,
really far-fetched. Not even
I would argue for that level of AI alertness, and I'm
all about radically cranking up AI senses. Secondly, if you really believe in
that level of AI sensitivity, why is it only coming up now? I have never seen you argue so vehemently on the
pro side of drastically increased AI awareness until now (now that it suits your agenda). I have not ever seen you argue against something from a standpoint of
realism either. Your stance has always been that this is a fantasy game and that realism takes a backseat to gameplay. Now suddenly you're concerned about reality? It seems to me that you argue for realism only when you think it will support your position (and ironically, it doesn't in this case).
Quote Posted by jtr7
Again, the devs would have to ignore that, and also place AIs in front of the field of view to justify making it.
You forgot about AIs' shadows - those might be visible too. Even a flicker of movement or brief change in the lighting could be a telltale sign that someone is in there. And as I've stated before, there are other things to notice about a room besides whether it's occupied.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and again, it never mattered, so why now? Just to make it different?
I addressed this in my previous posts and my answer was ignored.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Since the keyholes cannot be made large enough to be useful else they'd look ridiculous
Wrong.
Quote Posted by jtr7
it would be fudged
Wrong.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and like the TDS lockpicking or TMA Scouting Orb, need a key- or button-press to disengage from after taking you out of the world.
So what? You can't be bothered to tap a key?
Quote Posted by jtr7
But all this is unnecessary. All of it. The keyhole view is not worth the effort and no one can make a compelling argument to justify it
We already
have.
Quote Posted by jtr7
and all the changes it would bring
There don't
have to be any changes in the level design.
Quote Posted by jtr7
for a gimmick, as if Garrett needed more help
Garrett won't mind the help. And he'll need it if guards are able to notice a door cracking open or light streaming through from outside (which is a tad more realistic than them spotting your eyeball through a keyhole, eh?).
Quote Posted by jtr7
and just to be kewl.
Wrong - as explained (and promptly ignored) earlier.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Much better to just bring back the doors with windows and slots, and keyholes in proper places, of proper size--and further evolve Thief's unique use of sound, since that's a real selling point, rather than keyhole peeping. Why the hell were proper
Thief doors done away with in TDS?:mad:
Sheesh. Settle down, hey?
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Are you seriously going to complain based on the grounds that keyholes would have to be put on the door rather than on the handle? I mean, fair enough, I also thought the original Thief was a great game precisely because of those beautifully aesthetic door-handles with integrated keyhole. And I would also be up in arms if those fantastic, ergonomic designs were changed in the slightest. Keyholes in the door itself? Unheard of.
:laff: Awesome. Well said.
jtr7 on 19/11/2009 at 08:42
Describe "pretty simple thing", B'Man. :sly:
Concept? Or coding and working it in with level design and AI so it actually matters?
Gimme another after-school project that doesn't matter in the end. :p
sparhawk on 19/11/2009 at 08:57
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Interesting to know it was tested, I guess no amount of theory can argue with that. Any details you feel like giving? I'm just interested... while of course it's not a game-changer, I thought it'd be nifty to include, since it's a pretty simple thing.
There are a lot of ideas which sound nifty, and are easy to implement, but are not worth the time and even can reduce the fun of playing. Nothing beats playtesting when in doubt. ;) We really had LENGTHY discussions about all kind of features and ideas that sounded good at some time. Many of them are only apparently bad for the game when you really start to discuss it in such a detail that you could go about implementing it. And some of them still sound good after that stage but are bad when actually implemented and you can test them for real.
And as jtr7 already said quite elaboratley keyholes are not worth the effort.
And as a matter of fact, if you absolutely want keyholes you can easily do them by leaving a hole in the door where the player can look through.
I'm sure we didn't think of everything, and somebody creative comes up with a good idea at some time. But on the other hand, we really had lots of discussions, especially at the starting point, and after a fewy years of developing TDM, I see a lot of ideas put forward by fans. And so far I haven't seen a single idea that we had NOT discussed and either already implemented or dismissed, or in some cases put on hold for future improvements or additional tests.
The Shroud on 19/11/2009 at 09:05
Quote Posted by sparhawk
And as a matter of fact, if you absolutely want keyholes you can easily do them by leaving a hole in the door where the player can look through.
You know, that might not be such a bad workaround. If the camera's collision-model is shaped no larger than a human head, it should be possible to get your view right up close against the keyhole naturally, without having to code anything whatsoever. What do you think, Bakerman? Want to try it in the game you're working on?
