Political structure of Thief?

kamyk on 1/1/2006 at 21:17

I searched, and I have seen a reference or two to this subject, so I know I am not the only one interested in the topic, but I have yet to see a thread that actually discusses the subject exclusively.

I have been thinking about this for a while, and there are hints here and there in the games, but nothing terribly concrete. I know there is a mayor or something, and there were guards, and a prison warden. There were nobles as well. Anyone care to share any tidbits, or hypothesis about the social/political structure of the city? Obviously there was one. Someone was paying a salary to the city guards, and the prison warden.

Does anyone else think it a bit odd that through the course of the three games other factions were always the power base of the city, and the city politicians didn't bat an eyelash over it? If I were a mayor, and various factions were running my city over my head, I think I'd either be a bit ticked off, and do something about it, or expect to be replaced. I also can't imagine the nobles all just sitting around shrugging over the apparent ineptness of their representative government, as the other factions, and various monsters just swarmed through the streets causing chaos.

I am attempting (Not as in vague notion. As in already working with Dromed) to make an FM series partially utilizing this info, and could really use some information on this less than exploited faction.

Solabusca on 1/1/2006 at 21:32

What factions have control? I'm not seeing any disparity...

The Baron, his Regency Council and the nobles, as far as I can see, are the only legitimate government in the city.

All the others have influence, but that's a different story:

The Hammers patrol and enforce their law (sometimes to the chagrin of the Nobles/Watch), but don't really have any temporal power.

Mechanists are bribing nobles to come around to their way of viewing things, but have no real power.

The Keepers are a secret organization, and have no tangible power.

The Wardens are underworld figures, not City rulers. They do things behind the scenes.

The Pagans are outcast heretics, and are persecuted within the city. Hence, no power.

What these groups have, and rely on, is their ability to sway - through force, guile, bribery or blackmail - the 'legitimate' power structure of the Noblility and City Government.

.j.

kamyk on 1/1/2006 at 21:36

@ Solabusca

I was hoping you would respond. You seem to have a lot of ideas much of the time. With your disagreements with any points I made out of the way, could you perhaps clarify any as to your take on the structure of the legitimate power hierarchy?

dalten on 1/1/2006 at 21:44

I always thought of Garrett as the odd one out in the world before him. There was nothing to suggest that the hammers or mechanists were the opressing parties of the city or anywhere else. Quite the contrary; I think the hammer's were a welcome beacon for morality in dark times. Garrett makes claims that the hammers are insane, but all they ever wanted was strict moral standards. The people after all, joined the hammers at will and if they didn't they didn't come kill them or their family over it. So to me, this suggests that the hammers were accepted either for their moral standards or their military protection from other forces. They may have been scoffed at but they were definately not viewed as occupiers... at least not to me.

The nobles therefore were either welcoming the hammers based on one of the two reasons. The nobles in fact welcomed Karras with open arms because of his inventions. They didn't know he was a nutjob, he just seemed "upright" to them and provided modern convenience. The fact that the people desired such devices should suggest that their society was much like any modern society, ie, there's crime and there's punishment. If a group wants to step up and geniunly protect the people, why stop them?

I think there were a lot of agnostic people in the city though. They didn't care for the hammers but since they were willing to protect the city and stay out of their mansions, the nobles didn't really care what the did. I don't think Lord Bafford ever mentioned any allegience for anything spiritual, as far as I recall anyway.

In the end though, I believe LGS purposely didn't reveal a lot of the info your inquiring about. Telling you everything removes wonder and hinders imagination so I think some stuff we'll just never know. It might be better this way.

kamyk on 1/1/2006 at 21:47

Well, I could just freely apply my imagination, but I would kind of like to get a feel for the general consensus on the subject to consider in relation to my own ideas before I really delve into more than a rough storyline. I am after all working on making FMs for the fanbase as well as for my own enjoyment.

Those are some good points regarding the other factions, especially as relates to the Hammers, or Mechanists. That helps clarify a bit for me. I would still think that the nobles would feel that their government was a bit ineffective as regards all of the in street battles between the Pagans and Hammers, and the various undead innundations though...

Solabusca on 1/1/2006 at 22:01

I still find it a fairly standard example of a City-State. It exists as a seperate political entity from any other kingdom, fiefdom or duchy. While there may be some elements of democracy present it is primarily a feudal arrangement.

The Baron is at the top, de facto ruler of the City. I'd assume it's a hereditary position, as most of the nobility in the City seems to be hereditary (although some instances of a 'purchased' title would not be uncommon, given the strong mercantile nature of the City).

Historically, lords would give their cities enough rights to run themselves without siphoning too much power out of the lords’ direct control. In this case, the Baron divvies up civic responsability to a council of nobles, and either hand picks them or allows the illusion of choice by letting others vote.

I'd wager that the nobles within the City control land outside of it, and only choose to live inside the walls because that's where everything happens. Outside the City, their manors are run by chosen men, or further subdivided to their vassals who owe them oaths of fealty.

Things we have direct ingame knowledge of:

Regency Council (Gervasius and Bafford are members)
Great Families
Commisioners (Public Works, Watch, Taxation)
Extensive/byzantine level of government - liscencing, gaming, etc.

Anything else you'd note?

.j.

kamyk on 1/1/2006 at 22:12

Hmm, so theoretically the nobles should have almost as much if not more power than the governing representatives?

I have a fair grasp of feudal politics already, but I want to find out more about how the city itself is set up. In your average feudal system, the higher in the ranks you go, the more power you have, so that would indicate that the barons(?) (if that is the highest rank in the city) would be the defacto rulers, and a law unto themselves for the most part...

In mentioning Byzantine, would you recommend I research the Byzantine empire, or was it more of a passing analogy?

Also, you mention city/states. That smacks a bit of roman/greek politics (not that it was entirely exclusive to them, but...). So if that is the case, it would be a combination of a few types of political models...

(Gotta go for now. I'll come back and check this later).

Solabusca on 1/1/2006 at 22:29

Quote Posted by kamyk

My reference to City-State has more to to with my belief that the City is an autonomous entity, not part of another kingdom. Further, as has been discussed before, it's probable that the title 'the Baron' is an honorific related to governance of the City rather than a noble title per se, as it seems he outranks dukes, earls and other sundry potentates. Perhaps it's a throwback to a time before the City became autonomous, and is worn as a badge of rememberence by the current head.

There are examples of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City-state) Fuedal-era city-states, most notably in Germany and Italy.

I make mention of Byzantium/Constantinople as it has been noted as an inspiration for the City. I'd also warrant that Lankhmar and Sanctuary are major inspirations, as well.

.j.

DarkElf_Mairead on 5/1/2006 at 01:44

I think the Hammer's have a lot of power. They have their own prisons, like in Thief1, and no City Watch seem to go rescue them. Also, in Thief3 they were capturing Pagans. By that time Pagan's weren't persecuted that I could tell like they were in Thief2.

northeast on 5/1/2006 at 07:43

As to the Hammers:

It seems they are a powerful faction. They can be seen as similar to a Christian-like sect. The power shared by nobility and church would shift with the times.

Nobles seemed to have a prayer rooms, or their own churches. Often it's just paying lip service, but they don't seem to want to piss the Hammers off. Perhaps the Hammers would be similar in power to a certain number of Great Houses. There is a lot of Hammer property in and around the City, and they do mine and make weapons (among other things).

And the Hammerite religion could be found in many villages and other big cities. Any external influence they have would be an asset that the Lords of the City wouldn't trample so lightly on. (Unless there's a competing group, like the Mechanists, but that's a separate story.)

Edit: Then there's the Hammerite's social influence with the general populace. Such things can remove governments. But, again, this influence would wax and wane.