Bakerman on 17/5/2009 at 14:30
I voted for health potions, which was a mistake, and the dagger, which I'm not sure about.
Aside from that, all the arrows, and most other equipment except the mine.
On the sword v dagger argument, th player should be able to choose, and there should be consequences for both. I'm no sword expert, but it seems that a sword would make more noise when moving, would be heavier and has the potential to bang against things as you're turning, crouching, mantling, etc, as well as just being a nuisance. However, parrying (and bashing down doors). The dagger is less visible and cumbersome, but doesn't allow you to parry.
Allowing players to choose means they can determine the playstyle they want to go with.
TTK12G3 on 17/5/2009 at 15:24
I'm pretty sure the ratios of those who voted for holy water and those who voted for undead in the other thread are off somehow.
For the Sword vs. Dagger arguments: The Noble Science of Defense characterized fighting with the dagger as a complement to a sword. Fights with a dagger were rare and fights with two daggers were even more difficult to come by. In Thief I and II, the sword was meant to be a last ditch effort when cornered. In a more advanced implementation, Garrett could have slashed the forehead of his foe and run off while they were dealing with the massive amount of blood pouring down their face.
The dagger offers absolutely no advantage other than to run around backstabbing hapless guards. The highwayman argument does not work here since Garrett infiltrates fortress-like buildings alone, filled with armored, sword-wielding guards, while highwaymen attack poorly protected caravans in groups.
Personally, I think that this dagger argument is fueled by RPGs which recommend a "short-bladed" weapon, which seems to translate to dagger. When in a position where a fight is inevitable, the guy with the dagger is already a corpse.
Beleg Cúthalion on 17/5/2009 at 19:46
Quote Posted by steo
True, but in the confines of a computer game, there would likely be no circumstances in which you would get to use said useful tool (unless, as Ironpants said, you want to be able to eat with it) so there would be no point in giving it to the player in the first place, unless you wanted them to be killing people with it. [...] I still disagree, though, since the sword would still be useful for Garrett when faced with monsters, or as a last resort when cornered by guards where killing is the only feasible option for escape.
One last thing about those two points: Of course I'm primarily talking about reality here. I'm aware that a dagger which can only kill in a video game isn't anything useful. But if the player is given a couple of ways of using it, then it'd be a serious alternative to a sword. Concerning the second point; yes, that's why I voted for an (optional) sword if Garrett was working "outside" quite some time ago when Thief IV wasn't officially announced yet.
Chade on 17/5/2009 at 21:58
Quote Posted by Ironpants
First you claim the scenario makes no sense, then concede finding yourself in the exact situation in which it makes sense. I understand you found it rare enough to consider trivial; I did not. I enjoy the immersion of playing until dead or otherwise defeated, and the extra objectives in expert sold me right away.
If the situation happened to you as much as it happened to me (i.e., practically never), then we could objectively state that it is trivial.
This is the situation we are talking about, as I understand it:
1) you could not run away, and
2) by blocking blows, you would be able to run away at a later date.
If this really happened to you regularly, then ... I am flabbergasted. I also doubt that your experience generalizes to a large number of people.
belboz on 18/5/2009 at 15:18
I was going to post this else where but my internet went off so as this parts about weapons I'll post it here, havent fully read all the posts above.
This is based on the amount of cash the player can aculuminate throughout the play of the game, and the fact that you keep all the cash you make from mission to mission.
Well a simple solution for the equipment is that garrett can buy his weapons and lockpicks, but the ammo for said weapons cant be bought and can only be found in game, water arrows found in fountains, ponds, lakes, streams, gas arrows found in stinky sewers, normal arrows pinched from the city guard, exotic arrows found in houses of rich merchants and lords that like to collect that sort of stuff. So the cash you make can be used to finally get that bow upgrade, or you can save up for a silver dagger instead of an iron one, as silver daggers are more effective against undead and ghosts.
Another more sadistic train of thought went along the idea of the thief would actually have to collect the components for the ammo to be used, even through said ammo could still be found throughout the game, and in some sort of lab construct the ammo with said components, then the amount of ammo you could actually have would then be restricted to what you have found and made. With the gold you make from missions you could upgrade the lab to make more ammo with less components, but not make the components stupid like they were in bioshock. No i didn't nick the idea from bioshock, it was based on the magic circle and finding the components needed to cast spells from said circle, from one of my fan missions, chasm of the lost part one, if you cant remember which.
qolelis on 20/5/2009 at 16:56
I think T1 had a good set of equipment with the potential of covering all situations. I would be happy if that was the equipment we got, but I would like to see them made more versatile.
Keeping all four element arrows is a must for symmetry (four mages, four arrows, four elementals (even though we only got to see the fire elemental (and the air elemental in T1G)), four talismans and the references to the four elements in LC on tapestries).
Blackjack: If we were left with only one weapon in T4, I would choose the blackjack. Being able to knock AIs out is a basic need that cannot be left unfulfilled. Does it have to be a blackjack? Well, there are certainly other options, but I see no in-game reason to not include the blackjack. The blackjack could also be used for tearing down barricades.
Sword: for in-game historical reasons I prefer the sword over the dagger. The dagger could be argued to have merits over the sword, but the sword is more consistent with Garrett's Keeper training. Unthiefy or not, the player should have at least the choice to start a good fight or two (stealth should still of course be the main priority). The sword could also be used for tearing down barricades (needing less hits than the blackjack), slashing banners or ropes, bashing doors in and just destroying things in general. The tradeoff being that it makes a lot of guard-alerting sound.
Broadhead arrows: Is there a way to make these more versatile? I always end up with most of them left when done with a mission. I mostly use them for creating sound-distractions and for killing spiders, but that's all. I think they belong in Thief, though, and every once in a while I go out on killing sprees just for the hell of it. Aah, and yes, I almost forgot, broadheads should activate buttons (and levers) if hit from the right angle. I noticed in TDM that you could block a door by carefully placing a broadhead in or near it, which could be something to consider (a strong enough AI should be able to break through in a few hits, though, but it would still slow them down).
Water arrows: Represents the element of water, so yes, and of course the ability to create darkness. Could make moss pads grow and extend. Puts out fires.
Fire arrows: The element of fire, so yes, even though it is a bit unthiefy. Most effective against undead, especially zombies. Could set anything wooden or textile on fire. Relight extinguishables. Could make moss pads disappear by burning them. If shot into wet wood or moss, a smoke screen could be created (this would spend also at least one water arrow). Could bash doors in.
Gas arrows: This arrow represents the element of air, but what I find a bit inconsistent is that gas always makes you faint, while air generally makes you feel refreshed, but gameplay-wise the gas arrow is good (it should still be expensive, though, since it's a very powerful arrow).
For better consistency, the gas arrow could be replaced by an air arrow producing a gust of air which would throw an AI to the ground knocking it out by the mere blow. An air arrow could also be used for putting out extinguishables (torches etc...) like it was done in the FM called The Inverted Manse, to make it more versatile. Throwing guards off their feet could be a bit too hilarious to fit in Thief, but one could compare it with the effect that the attack of an air elemental would have on a human. I could accept gas arrows representing air if the air arrow doesn't fit.
Moss arrows: Represents the element of earth. Makes for silent movement over noisy floors. A stealthy tool and a must have in a game like Thief. Could jam locks for slowing guards down (or stopping them). Choking AIs like in T3? Could be more hilarious than useful, but perhaps. I like what's being done in TDM where you will be able to break glass silently by covering it with moss first.
Rope arrows: A must have! Vertical exploration belongs very much in Thief. Placing a rope arrow also takes a bit of player skill. Should stick to any wooden surface (objects, walls, ceilings etc...).
Flashbombs: It's always good to have one or two, just in case. Undead don't like them very much either. Should a stunned AI always be knockoutable? This could be argued, but I say yes to this. The sound (alerting other guards) when you drop a flashbomb could be tradeoff enough. I say yes not only because it was done in T1&2, but also because it gives us something to play around with (like climbing a rope with a number of guards following you and then stun them with a flashbomb, jumping down and knock them all out :ebil: ).
Mines: I'm not sure about these, since their function could be covered by a fire arrow, but with the proper trade-off of sound balancing the advantage over a fire arrow, they make for a more varied gameplay (an argument that could also be used for flash mines and gas mines, which I have excluded in my must have list, so I wouldn't be consistent if I allowed mines). Well, what can be concluded is that the mine is not considered a must have.
Holy water: The Hammerite Order is one of my favourite factions, so holy water is a must have. Discovering a holy fountain in an abandoned crypt is a nice feeling. Holy water is one of the few signs of The Builder's presence so often talked about by the Hammers (no, I'm not a religious person, I just like to see signs of the underlying mythology in Thief). Most effective against undead. Animal AIs (including humans) have their health restored if hit with a holy arrow.
What about holy water crystals? Do they lose their holy power when taken away from the "holy source"? Is this why LGS decided to not include them? Shouldn't holy water crystals be able to form in holy water or is their something about the pureness of holy water that makes this impossible (a crystal needs something to form itself around (like a pearl in an oyster))? If a holy water crystal is allowed to form, I think its holy power should be permanent, but make them scarce (maybe they only form in old abandoned crypts where the holy water could have been contaminated by dust or sand particles).
Should bottles of holy water (sealed) be allowed to be filled again? Maybe you can't seal it again, so the holy power doesn't last, but it does last a bit longer than the power in sanctified water arrows. Pointless exercise, perhaps? Just keep it the way it was in T1&2?
Health potion: This could be replaced by the finding and eating of enough food, so I don't think it's a must have. Food should always be edible and restore a small part of your health (or with a probability like in T2). What about the healing fruits (are these mainly of Pagan origin)?
Speed potion: Not really a must have, but fun to play with and it can't be replaced by any other piece of equipment. I used it in the Lost City to jump over the first lava pool to the building housing the fire talisman, which had been impossible without a speed potion.
Breath potion: With swimmable water, which in itself is a must have, the breath potion is a must have. It's, simply put, bottled air. I love swimming around in strange locations and overflown buildings.
These are the ones I left out completely:
* Flash mines, a flashbomb can be used instead.
* Gas mines, use a gas arrow instead.
* Slowfall potion, design the mission for rope arrows instead.
* Invisibility potion, provide shadows or other ways around the obstacle instead.
* Noisemaker arrows, use a broadhead or an object instead.
* Scouting orb, If a mission was built more around their use, I would enjoy them more, but as of now I just don't consider them.
* Climbing gloves, use rope arrows instead.
* Slippery oil, too much of a gimmick for me, use a flashbomb instead (or a fire arrow and something that would burn).
* Vine arrows, use rope arrows instead (combined with throwable wooden objects, that may or may not fall down).
* Frogbeast eggs, not at all a must have and it feels like something that the main character should have access to only if allied with the Pagans (it also feels a bit strange that the nature loving Pagans should allow for frogs to blow up by giving their eggs to city-dwellers). I never used them. If you want to blow things up, a mine is more effective (Or is it? I realize now that I've never really compared them). They kind of fitted in T2 when Garrett worked with Victoria (as a way of thanking her for taking his eye, I mean :erg: ).
agrash on 22/5/2009 at 11:11
Everything from thief 2, but without the flash mine's and i prefer the dagger of the sword. A thief running around with a normal sword is somehow unrealistic to me. Or perhaps a shortsword
I like how you can choose how you can get around a mission with lots of equipment in thief 2 :D
-Jumping down from the hammerite church using slowfall instead of traveling back to the stairs
-Using invisibility for a difficult part
-Speed potion to jump to impossible places (allthough i have to say that i didn't use this one alot since you can outrun everything)
-Placing down a mine just between 2 guards and then fire a noisemaker near the mine
-Using the frogbeast glitch to kill a guard allthough your objective tells you otherwise
-..
No climbing gloves & oil flasks for me though.. Allthough i would like to see a bowupgrade later on in the game :sly:
demagogue on 23/5/2009 at 06:17
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The results don't make sense. 87 people voted and yet not everyone voted for the balckjack and rope arrows! :eek:
WHO ARE THE DISSENTERS :mad:
I'd like the choice of dagger or sword btw.
Isn't this what happens in T1 and 2? I haven't played them for a long time but I remember that water arrows are used up if you create holy-water arrows. I like this idea, yes, but lets try not mention BS in relation to Thief please.
Sorry for the tangent here, but ...
Holy crap, SubjEffect. Did you even notice that this was your 10,000th TTLG post? I saw you just popped over 10K and was curious so counted backwards, and this was it. That deserves a kind of congratulations. :thumb:
Foamulator on 25/5/2009 at 03:50
I want to thank all for maintaining this site. I haven't played theif for a long time, but it was the greatest of all .
I am so happy to see that most are in agreement with me on the moronic climbing gloves vs. the good old rope arrow.
I always wished that the designers would have given us more opportunities to use other (higher) highways to travel on, ala rope arrows to the roofs and ledges. That was always the most fun to me. One of my fun things I liked to do was just send a rope up in a central area and climb up to scope things out .
Also, the general play of the game is more important today, and I would like to see a much less linear playline, so I dont feel like a rat in a maze, as I felt in T3. It would be great to see a Morrowind type setup , where I could go to different cities or areas and start / resume quests or goals. In short , I want freedom of movement and goals.
I also agree with the notion that Garrett is not a murderer, so I only use the sword on the monsters and undead. Silly I suppose, but that is the way I always played the game.
Jilly The Taffer on 27/5/2009 at 21:32
*looks at the poll results*
Wow, do you people seriously prefer the sword rather than the dagger?
I quite liked the DS change from the sword to the dagger. It's more thief-like to carry a small, concealable blade, than a great, hulking sword.
And it's not like Garrett uses it much anyway, backstabs at most, but he should usually avoid blade combat.
