Xorak on 3/3/2014 at 00:22
I think I've turned around on this. Maybe if someone didn't care enough to fix their own missions, then they shouldn't be fixed without successfully contacting them and getting their approval.
But it is ironic that we fix Dromed and Thief without the approval of the right's holders, and we have no problem with that because it benefits us. We want to claim that we're doing a noble thing to keep Thief alive against the backdrop of decline and ignorance, but isn't that the basic point of fixing broken missions? Everything done here is done in good faith.
DiMarzio on 3/3/2014 at 11:19
I don't understand why you all care so much about authors' permissions. Fan missions are of course art, made by them, but not something someone earns their living from. And the fixer isn't presumably going to rewrite the novel with his own words, he is just correcting the typos. I don't feel anything bad about making the mission the way author originally intended. I think it's a good idea to make them separate files like gnartsch did with (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141185) his text patches. If some masochists like to play the mission in the original way, let's grant them the pleasure. Completely replacing the FMs isn't a good idea because of the version conflicts, either, as stated in the OP.
And I don't understand why this is so big question. voodoo47 and others have done such changes to the OMs without any permissions from the original authors. I can't see how FMs could be any holier than them.
Of course, if the original artist can be contacted that's so much better, but they can't possibly deny us from making the detachable, transparent layer to the painting.
zappenduster on 3/3/2014 at 13:04
Quote Posted by DiMarzio
I don't understand why you all care so much about authors' permissions.
Does that mean fan missions are freeware with the source code included then?
Inline Image:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/shake.gifRicebug on 3/3/2014 at 13:08
You are all correct. I should not be advancing the idea of making DROP-IN .MIS FILES that fix broken loot and objectives. In fact, in order not to violate the sacred (and undocumented) copyrights that we add to our text files, I suggest that we all come clean and do the following. Load up every FM you've done and delete the following files:
[INDENT]Any of R Soul's, NV's, or other “improved” objects, SFX and textures we use because the original ones were in some way deficient.
Get rid of Jermi's “new and improved” stars that put the original authors' work to shame. Same with all those pretty water textures that someone put a lot of work into. Get rid of it all.
We'd better let Pinkdot know to scrap the idea of “improving” the original AI meshes.
Delete all the “fixed” OMs that can now be enjoyed—totally error free—by the masses.
[/INDENT]
How do we get to the place where we think we can just totally replace and improve what the pros at LGS created? But by the Trickster's Tail, we'd better not touch some amateur's FM that was rushed out the door just before they dropped their Thief folder into the Recycle bin to make room for My Little Pony.
fibanocci on 3/3/2014 at 13:28
You should take this more seriously.
Is it really that hard to ask for permission?
Melan on 3/3/2014 at 14:01
Quote Posted by Ricebug
How do we get to the place where we think we can just totally replace and improve what the pros at LGS created? But by the Trickster’s Tail, we’d better not touch some amateur’s FM that was rushed out the door just before they dropped their Thief folder into the Recycle bin to make room for
My Little Pony.
FWIW, if that's how you think about others' missions, you may not be the person who should be "fixing" them.
My two pence,
Shadowstar Nightmane
qolelis on 3/3/2014 at 15:43
There could be situations where fixing a mission breaks it in other places and the author being the only one knowing how to fix that, because s/he used some trickery/exploit that may not be immediately obvious to anyone else (or not even be noticed at all). It's also not always easy to tell the author's intention behind every detail in a mission.
zacharias on 3/3/2014 at 15:50
Bit of a bizarre thread at this point. For my part I applaud wanting to fix genuinely broken FM's (although I don't really consider a bit of missing loot to be a broken mission - the author may have been trolling the player by making loot unobtainable for all we know) but consider the advice given here is also so you are covering yourself by getting permission.
As for the other argument..LGS people were under contract and were already paid for their work, the situation is different; we are talking here about fan made works that were released to the community under strict rules of 'no profit' and a general consensus of 'do not redistribute or modify without permission'. The unwritten rule being most authors will be fine with you modifying a FM - just ask permission first. As the very first reply said!
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this thread is redundant.
baeuchlein on 4/3/2014 at 08:50
Quote Posted by zacharias
we are talking here about fan made works that were released to the community under strict rules of 'no profit' and a general consensus of 'do not redistribute or modify without permission'. The unwritten rule being most authors will be ...
Unwritten rules and "general consensus" usually are not a good foundation for doing things, although one should not ignore them if they really become visible. On the other hand, who defines these rules - and who does
not? If we had not had the poll at the beginning of this thread, I would not be so certain that there is such a consensus. There are cases where some people in a community superimpose themselves and what they
call a consensus above all others.
However, since the poll points clearly into one direction ("don't change too much in other people's missions!"), I will not ignore it. And although it may be tempting to ignore the consensus of not to change other people's missions (in general) in order to fix things that someone perceives as faulty or broken, I would like to advise people to not do it lightly, and try to get permission in all cases.
Quote Posted by zacharias
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this thread is redundant.
No, it is not. It has changed
my opinion on things already, and it has given some of the authors a chance to voice what they think about the question discussed here. Not allowing this thread to develop would mean to suppress anyone who might be of different opinion. And if you want to still call the people at TTLG a
community, you must give them the chance of voicing what they think. That is exactly what this thread is doing now.
FireMage on 4/3/2014 at 09:21
Stay cool Ricebug, this is not correct to say that missions with problems have been done with rush and abandonned by their author. The most part of the time, it is an IRL fact! Me, for example, I'm famous on doing the most glitched missions never fixed. Why don't I fix them myslelf? Just because it is hard to do such thing, it ask sometime MORE time than creating a new mission!! And because I'm a busy man (and each year it's worse than the previous one) I can't do it! But I don't give up on thief anyway!
Just contact the author first and If he don't reply, fix without his permission, if he grunts when he come back, just delete the file and talk about it no more! ^^
