Solabusca on 27/7/2006 at 05:55
Quote Posted by DarthMRN
LGS is proud of the community for creating a real history from their random scraps.
Yep. But it seems that they did a lot to tie together their random scraps fairly well.
Or recycle them so that they could spin out a more cohesive story from one game to the next.
But they gave us a wonderfullly evocative setting, and we can hardly be blamed for trying to extrapolate further from the canonical work. Those of us with a creative bent tend to get worked up about things like that.
.j.
Jarkko Ranta on 27/7/2006 at 06:30
Now that's Creature from the Black Lagoon...
But back to the KD: I found interesting that KD was about the only abandoned place in TDP where was no zombies (wouldn't fit the theme). So no dark magic here. Whenever Trickster uses his high gear there's almost always undead lurking nearby (even the ritual of the Eye there was this "rest not the dead"-part...). Also, I saw a document about Mayas or Aztecs that showed how a high-tec (it was at that time!) civilization can be wiped out something as boring as a lack of rain and then blame gods for laying fire and brimstone from the sky. (I know the lack of rain won't put KD entombed near a lake of magma, but it could have been only bad karma) To those guys who think that the Precursors weren't humans then there were a lot of human remains for a place that no human would enter for (hundreds/thousands?) of years. Didn't someone speculate the Guild of Enlightment would evolve into the Order of the Hammer?
dlw6 on 27/7/2006 at 09:56
Quote Posted by Solabusca
So thank you for allowing me to present these two elements for you.
You're welcome. My purpose in asking for it was for the new members, but it seems that one middle-aged member (me) needed it too. :thumb: I'd forgotten that scroll. Maybe Nyarla thought the guesture more desperate than sanguine, they should have sacrificed stallions. I am not much good at DromEd so I'm not sure how to find object names. :confused:
I'm a Lovecraft fan, but I don't think Cthulu would have worn robes. :eww:
Don
DJ Riff on 27/2/2007 at 21:16
Trying to gather all evidences together…
I think that Precursors were a human race. The map was posted here already, and I've found this texture:
Inline Image:
http://djriff.newmail.ru/thief/Precursors/COFLID.GIFIt's a lid of one of the coffins near the room with lever (and Water talisman in DP) — it's a man on it, and probably a man buried there.
But we know this text:
"…
Five clicks for Gruliac, most favored of all and King of the Kurshok. Human and tree bow before him, and we bathe in glory…"
So the Kurshok and human lived at the same time.
In the Lost City we can find these masks:
Inline Image:
http://djriff.newmail.ru/thief/Precursors/Precursor_3mask.pngOne of them is human, one looks like Kurshok, and one like a hybrid of some kind.
Also, we see some faces that can be interpreted as 'fish-like':
Inline Image:
http://djriff.newmail.ru/thief/Precursors/Walfresa.gif Inline Image:
http://djriff.newmail.ru/thief/Precursors/Walfrese.gif Inline Image:
http://djriff.newmail.ru/thief/Precursors/Walfresf.gif Inline Image:
http://djriff.newmail.ru/thief/Precursors/Walfresw.gifSo, we see that Precursors were also aware of Kurshok race. I think that Kurshok's prosperity period is related to 'Stone Age' of human civilisation. Kurshoks fall before Karath-Din was built, but the legends and some paintings of them remained, and Precursors consider them as gods or ancestors.
About the architecture similarity — The Precursors might be inspired by the ruins of Kurshok buildings, or Precursors just rebuilt some of them.
Another thing that I noticed — the other coffin:
Inline Image:
http://djriff.newmail.ru/thief/Precursors/COFLIDF.GIFThe Sun/Fire symbol is not in the sky, but under the Earth and Water — isn't it strange?
There's the same thing in the tower, where the Fire Talisman was kept (look at the Faces-Symbols) — the Fire Symbol is on the ground floor.
Does this mean that they lived on a tectonic active terrain and the 'Fire Under The Earth' was the main energy supply for their technology/magic?
Garraty on 28/2/2007 at 04:25
Something to note about their technological level...
On thief: metal age, at mission where you listen to conversation at church you can access a workshop where they press those masks on corpses.
Meaning that masks arent some kind of mindcontrol things, but more like very hightech (electric shocks can move mucles) or necromantic, or most likely bit of both.
My guess (no hard info, just gut feeling) is that they figured out how to mix hightech and dark magic.
Solabusca on 28/2/2007 at 05:11
Quote Posted by DJ Riff
[SNIP GOOD SYNOPSIS]
Riff, you're hitting all the high-points.
Given my thoughts on the genesis of the Trickster, I'd up the timeline of the Kurshok empire (but not necessary the Kurshok themselves) to post-KD - and still tie it in to the Lovecraft angle discussed earlier.
Not long after discussing the Kurshok in threads like this, and especially after the first appearance of the transitional-face images in another thread, I started getting a heavy (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_One) Deep One vibe off of the Kurshok; perhaps they were inter-breeding with the people of KD, another sign of impending doom.
In any case, I like the ideas you're proposing, and wanted to comment.
I also like the 'Geo-Thermal' power source idea - something to ponder further, I'd say, especially given the way the idea lines up with in-game sources.
.j.
jtr7 on 28/2/2007 at 07:02
Not that I'm contributing anything significant to this thread, but within the folder those image files are found in they display in transitional order when viewed in alphabetical order. Man, hybrid, beast. I thought it was interesting when I saw that.
Abysmal on 28/2/2007 at 08:20
It's always been my belief that the Kurshok were the beastie/Trickster side of the precursors, and the humans were the Builder side. The Enlightenment Guild, made up of Keeper and Hand Brotherhood precursors before they split (there are subtle references to their connection) post-cataclysm, made up the "balance" faction in KD. This layout is roughly analogous to The City and its faction system.
The Lost City is so obviously in all 3 Thief games, and nothing in Sunken Citadel distinctly proves that the Kurshok were an entirely unrelated civilization (I've pored through the text enough). IMO, everything points to the place being a branch-off of KD devoted to the ancient Trickster race, similar to Pagan territories in The City. They have their own king and culture, but they are still a part of Karath Din (and I imagine there were other pagan humans and beasties then too). Just because the oh-so-Lost-City architecture is subtly different with fish scales and Kurshok trappings, does not automatically make it a completely disconnected nation.
I think the Temple of N'Lahotep thing is just a fun reference the developer wanted to throw in there. For canon, it can be considered the name of the temple, but not of any god. The statue is not officially named inside the game itself. However, it is undoubtedly within the realm of possibility that the worship of false gods is what caused the cataclysm.
Cronkhite on 28/2/2007 at 09:56
Interesting observations, DJ Riff.
I have to disagree that the 4 symbols appear "fish-like." They represent the 4 elements: air, earth, fire, and water. The symbols look fearsome, perhaps even bestial, in nature, but none of their features resemble those of fish. What I did notice about the faces, however, is the apparent anger they display. They seem to be exhibiting malevolent, vengeful behavior.
Which leads us to the especially intriguing coffin. The coffin is also representing the 4 elements. My unsupported interpretation of the artist's rendering is that the order of the elements indicates disorder, mayhem, and chaos, perhaps wrought by the destruction (natural or otherwise) that destroyed the Precursors. This all ties in nicely with the rage depicted in the 4 elemental faces. For some reason I think of nuclear winter (notice that, in this rendering, the sun would be blocked from sight). This is probably reading too much into the ordering, however.
I find the whole Kurshok story in TDS fascinating. You can really see the Biblical influence in the undertones of the stories found in the Sunken Citadel. How the Kurshok were essentially god's chosen people (Israelites, anyone?), but grew arrogant and crass, going so far as to have the leader declare himself a god, thus losing the power they had obtained. This really reminds of the tower of Babel, the 2nd and 3rd commandments, and the Great Flood.
The keeper who died attempting to recover the key glyph wrote this about the Kurshok: "I have found my way into an ancient library, and secured the door. Apparently, these beasts could once read and write. Perhaps living in these caves for generations has eroded their faculties."
You have to wonder how much time had passed to move from a literate, presumably strong civilization to the Kurshok in TDS.
The Kurshok scholar, Turish, wrote this anthology of kings:
Blood Kings:
Gruliac
Grustam
Grenderic
Lesser-Kings:
Orpet
Orpetolia (reigned 50 years*)
Boramin (Scholar king who attempted to "save" the learning, but failed. I mark this as either the beginning of illiteracy or illiteracy in the general Kurshok population.)
Pertok
Bergamis
Gruvat
Formac
Moriac
Last Kings:
Tormac
Fromulat
Bisit
Merdiac
Chaos Times (Marks the end of the kings.)
I was wondering when precisely the Chaos times started in relation to the Thief series time. 15 listed kings could have represented up to full 15 generations, which would be centuries. I for one think that the Sunken Citadel was in fact built by the Kushok as a citadel within their own city, but when they lost favor with their god, catastrophe struck in the form of elemental disaster, the city was submerged, and the City we see in the Thief series was built over the ruins of the Kurshok city (and citadel). As far as what the Kurshok originally looked like, I do not know. Certainly in our modern understanding of evolution, the Kurshok wouldn't have changed so drastically from humans to their TDS version in even 10,000 years. But it's possible that a curse by their god sped up the process, or even made it instantaneous.
*Presuming "years"
242 on 28/2/2007 at 10:33
Quote Posted by theBlackman
There is no specific information about them, thier technology or social structure.
There are enough scrolls in the Lost City, and there is a scroll about their social structure. In no particular order:
page_0: "Beniir has been informed that you ordered the sacrosanct \
parchments moved to the archives beneath the great temple-palace, lest \
they be destroyed by the angry and fiery breath of the earth. On the \
morrow's eve we shall move ourselves there as well. Do not tarry."
page_0: "We've been careful to avoid the roaming elementals throughout our sojourn, but today we've taken a serious blow. From out of nowhere, a number of them assaulted the troupe. We fended them off with our remaining supply of water crystals, but the price was heavy. Hodge was severely burned and may not live through the night. Both Yannis and Abner are dead."
page_1: "Hodge died this morning. I tried desperately to care for him, but to no avail. He was delirious and gibbering and he cried out in pain, clawing the abysmal ground beneath him. I tried to calm him, but when he grabbed my hair and pulled my ear close to his lips, he said but one thing before expiring... 'burning water'."
page_0: "We had just come upon a tall and sturdy tower, and it was agreed upon that we should deposit the Talisman there. The staircase to the top floor had collapsed some time ago which made ascension difficult. Aeric had pointed out the ledge circling the tower, suggesting that one of us place the Talisman out there. I laughed at his comment uncaringly. This disturbs me."
page_1: "Tomorrow we shall head back the way we came. I cannot keep myself from wondering why the burning elementals stood at bay as we passed. Will they still, now that we no longer carry the Talisman of Fire?"
page_0: "Dear Mailu
The city is too grand for this unworthy country \
lass. I visited the Emperor's colosseum. Such a \
spectacle! The colosseum is bigger than our \
village! The cheer is deafening when they extend \
the bridge from below the royal balcony. Great \
doors open and the combatants enter the \
battlefield, a raised island in the middle of the \
arena. Hundreds of magical fires float on the \
surface of the water. I saw there a gladiator who \
wrestled with a pair of lions, and the Emperor's son himself \
tossed him a bag of gold! I will tell you more later, but Cherok calls.
Naza."
page_0: "From: Secretary of Protocol Weitan
To: Keeper of the Keys Fuquan
It is spoken that Va-Toran has closed the \
coliseum for reasons other than piety. In a \
year and a day of mourning Toran may devise \
a way to make money from the building. As \
cheering crowds were to his father, is the \
clink of coins to Toran. To inter the key \
with Va-Taraq is genius. None will touch it, \
yet should it serve, it can be \"lost\" to \
grave robbers. Our new master is wily. This \
humble servant fears for Karath-din."
page_0: "Fire rains upon us from the sky. At the Temple of N'Lahotep, \
four hallowed geldings were offered to appease the acrimonious earth. \
The sanguine overture has done nothing to pacify her."
page_0: "A speech given by Master Ruitan
to the Guild of Enlightenment.
The priests tell the ignorant that the earth \
is crying for her departed brother, Va-Taraq. \
We know that these tremors signify something \
more ominous. Taraq would have listened to \
us and evacuated the city, but his son is \
less enlightened. The Guild must protect \
what we can, by whatever magical and mundane \
means we posses. The tower must not fall."
page_0: "Despite hardships, I have welcomed \
this opportunity to study the city of the \
precursors. Their society was remarkable, \
stratified like the bedrock, and seemingly as \
stable. Above all was the Emperor, a divine \
figure, answerable to none but their gods. \
Emperors were seldom seen by the common \
people and this distance gave rise to a \
powerful and politically charged bureaucracy."
page_1: "The last Emperor but one, Va-Taraq seems to \
have been different, an unprecedented \
man of the people."
page_0: "Let the tomb be dug deep into the \
earth, and filled with all manner of things \
which are pleasing to serve him in his nether \
days. Splendor shall follow our beloved \
monarch to mark his glory. And woe to those \
who would disturb his sleep! They shall be \
imperiled from below, from above and from \
that which is directly before their eyes."
page_0: "To honor the life memory of our \
departed father and king, Va-Taraq, Son of \
the Sky, the coliseum he built for his people \
will be closed for a year and a day. Let the \
gates be locked and none make merry while \
the sky and earth themselves do shake and \
cry for their departed brother. This I decree
Va-Toran
Son of the Sky"
