LarryG on 13/9/2012 at 23:09
I'm always surprised by the actions of Muslim extremists. They appear to be so certain that they are right that they are willing to die for their beliefs and at the same time so fragile in their beliefs that they constantly overreact to any perceived threats.
Take for example the latest horrors of people killed in Libya because other people, only very tangentially related by nationality (maybe), posted a video that the murderers took exception to. Given that it is a blatantly, offensively, and historically inaccurate depiction of the life of the Prophet Mohammed--and from what I have heard about the video that is the case--, but what in it could be so threatening to a "True Believer" as to cause such a reaction, and riots in other Islamic nations? Is their faith so fragile?
People do things every day that I find offensive, morally repugnant, hostile to my religious beliefs, but I have never felt the need to kill the Canadian ambassador (say) because some other Canadian (maybe) has made a bad film. Neo-nazis have made all sorts of repugnant films that distort the history of the Jews, Blacks, and Romani, insult their cultures and beliefs, and threaten outright violence against them. But I don't recall any of these groups retaliating against random German or Austrian citizens because of that. Maybe I missed the news that week?
Don't get me wrong, I dislike extremists of all stripes and spots, religious or political, I find them all disturbing, disgusting, and horrifying. Militant Christians and militant Jews are equally narrow minded. Someone killing a doctor because of their stance on abortion is just as horrible as someone killing an ambassador. Someone burning down a mosque is just as bad as someone firebombing a black church or Jewish synagogue. But it seems that we have whole nations of people now who think that it is OK to murder for their beliefs. It's one thing when it is the occasional individual or group of inbred wackos doing this, but it is a whole different order of insanity when whole nations act this way.
Maybe my view of this is distorted by the filter of the American news outlets, but it just seems that something has gone seriously wrong. What has happened to the flower of civilization? What has happened to discourse? What has happened to reason? Why are these people not acting like rational beings?
SubJeff on 13/9/2012 at 23:21
It's amazingly backwards isn't it? It's almost feral behaviour and it's certainly the actions of frenzied idealists.
I've been watching this stuff for years, discussing it for years with Muslims and non-Muslims alike. I'd like to say it's the actions of the proles in those countries because we can excuse that to some degree; the uneducated masses have always been manipulated through brainwashing towards a cause, as can be seen throughout history.
However, I find this different. You're quite right about other cultures and religions not attacking loose affiliates of their "enemys" LarryG. I don't think this is a problem with the people, with the countries - I think it's an issue with this religion, whether it is what the religious texts prescribe or not; it's what is being practised. Other religions have doubtless had the same; Christianity had witch hunts and the Inquisition. But that was ages ago and you'd think humanity had become enlightened. I don't believe in God and I think that religion is only good for one thing; division and destruction.
Muzman on 13/9/2012 at 23:47
It's probably worth noting that it's pretty unlikely that video has anything to do with this attack. These guys collect this stuff and use it to wave around. That clip came along at just the right time for their little 9/11 anniversary. They probably could have cooked up something else as cover for their rocket attack otherwise.
SD on 14/9/2012 at 00:52
Quote Posted by LarryG
I'm always surprised by the actions of Muslim extremists.
Read the Koran, it'll cure you of that. It's an instruction manual for medieval cuntery.
Religion poisons everything. The sooner it dies, the better.
Vasquez on 14/9/2012 at 05:02
Religion is obviously a big part of the culture in Middle East, and religion makes people act crazy in other parts of the world too, but I believe the basis of this mob frenzy behaviour is still more cultural than actually religious. Settling things with violence seems quite a strong trait there, and of course the Western world has done it's share of war-faring, torturing and killing, but for some reason we've been striving to grow out of it (not necessarily on individual level, but at least socially and legally). Maybe the big wars had something to do with it.
Middle East countries have long histories and many of them were the peak of progress long time ago, with advanced science, arts and social culture. I wonder if it's some kind of a wave, now it's the "golden age" of the West, and the former great kingdoms have fallen behind. For some reason - maybe because their cultures have survived so very long - they're struggling to climb out of the pit of traditions holding them back.
Of course one should be politically correct and say "Oh, I respect all cultures, traditions and religions" etc. But having grown up in a society where for example the concept of "honour" is the exact opposite to that of many Middle Eastern cultures (here attacking someone weaker than you, especially a man attacking a woman, is considered the ultimate cowardess), I must admit I have big trouble respecting many things about Middle Eastern cultures.
I remember seeing speculations that even the climate and terrain have something to do with how people behave and how their cultures develop. Who knows, maybe it's true - at least it seems like here in the cold North people aren't terribly mob-oriented. A blizzard and -20 C cools down the anger quite efficiently ;)
demagogue on 14/9/2012 at 05:58
Here's what I'm dealing with these days. There's a Muslim minority group living in north Burma, the Rohingya, that are pretty much treated like blacks were in the US south circa 1865. The archeological evidence says there's been this Muslim community there since around 900 AD and they consider themselves Burmese (naturally), but my students insist they're like illegal immigrants and not Burmese -- They get cagey on when they actually illegally immigrated (some say the 1950s(wtf?!) some say the 1820s), but at the least we're talking about the grandkids now even assuming the most transparently racist history books are right (which they aren't). And as we all know, under international law, if a person is born in your territory at the very least you need to give them citizenship so they do not end up stateless. So a great number of this community (wiki says there are 800,000 living in Burma) are stateless or under a false passport, and their kids are born stateless. But they can't leave for any other state that would accept them (when there's violence they often flee to Bangladesh, but Bangladesh wants them even less than Burma so always hands them back over). The catch, of course, is that there are spats of violence on both sides, the Burmese & Rohingya side, that sometimes erupt into full scale riots & clashes...
But if I even try to bring the subject of them up in class, first they'll stop me and insist there is no such people as "Rohingya", these are all again just illegal Bengali immigrants or something, all 800,000 of them (of course they'd never admit there's 800,000; at most "there's only a few thousand" they'd say). So first I have to deal with them not acknowledging these people even exist. Second I have to deal with my students not believing they aren't stateless (they think they're fighting for self-determination, when it's more like for citizenship), but anyway they're "illegal immigrants" so deserve to be deported in any event (they get cagey on just where they're supposed to be deported to ... ) But most of all, there is so much bad blood they will wonder why we even care about this group and not their crimes & victims... They have blood on their hands and are all dangerous madmen, again all 800,000 of them apparently. Seriously, it's like trying to talk to someone from the US South 1865 about black rights when their first thought is, blacks are not rational humans you can deal with, much less Americans & lets get them back to Africa ASAP, and they'll get incredibly irate if you try to go on. It's next to impossible to talk to my students just because they'll look away, some will even walk out of the class... ugh... This happened yesterday and there's still tension in the air.
But then, of course, yeah, it's a Muslim group... So any time there's some ridiculous violence anywhere in the world involving Muslims, they get tied to it. And of course this Muslim group is never helping their cause when they go on rampages themselves killing innocent people and burning temples like madmen. Ugh, such a problem from hell... There is waaay too much emotion on both sides; I wish they could just hold their emotion for two damn seconds to think about the problem rationally; you have to deal with them politically one way or another. I mean when you're talking about a community of 800,000 people, they're not *all* mad, and you can't just ignore them and let them be stateless "illegal immigrants" forever (to their kids, grandkids, great-grandkids... How long are you going to let them go on like that?) They need to have citizenship somewhere. If you don't think their Burmese, then maybe we need to have some nationalization process so they need to go to some course, wait 10 years, and take an oath of loyalty to the state and maybe have mandatory military service (historically good at connecting former-enemy ethnic groups), or if you insist they have to go to Bangladesh, start negotiating but realize Bang has already said it will never take them in... 100 years from now you'll have the same problem when you could solve it tomorrow with a legal process to nationalize.
I understand this is not the only situation in the world with this problem... cf. North Ireland, Israel-Palestine, India-Pakistan, I'm sure others... where people just don't deal with it rationally and their blood boils, and it's some issue of fundamental sovereignty and not, say, run-of-the-mill stuff like people need citizenship & most just want a normal life... I guess my first thought is it's a damn shame that an entire population can be held hostage to a few extremists. We just had the Arab Spring FFS. This is supposed to be their moment in history. I don't imagine all of them are radical even if they tend on the conservative side of the spectrum and can get group-think'd into supporting some counter-productive rightist leaders... Apparently (the theory goes) if they're in a democratic system, then they can channel their emotions into politics and not violence, and things can get normalized... But sometimes I don't know. I fear this group in North Burma 100 years from now will still be stateless (lower than 2nd class citizens), suffering, and still no light at the end of the tunnel.
Illuminatus on 14/9/2012 at 06:26
It's all that hot blood from the warm Mediterranean climate riling em up! Us Northerners have a cooler disposition, etc /1850s worldview
Some details from this specific context: post-Gaddafi Libya still has a relatively weak central government, which means sluggish economic recovery and (crucially) a state which does not yet have exclusive monopoly on violence (armed militias from the civil war still operate as de facto police in many towns and neighborhoods). Whether the embassy violence was a planned attack by jihadists or spontaneous anger by bums with guns, those are some key facts to remember.
In Egypt and (especially) Yemen, where the other main protests have occurred, you've got even worse economic prospects and deep dissatisfaction with the new governments at the glacial pace of reform, ongoing corruption, ex-regime remnants, etc. Yemen in particular has almost 40% unemployment, and the current US ambassador is deeply unpopular right now because of his close ties to ex-President Saleh (he's seen by many locals as a key figure in helping Saleh leave power with immunity from future prosecution). All these factors create a deprived, uneducated segment of society that will seize any opportunity to make some noise and rattle their proverbial cages when they feel the US (former #1 ally of their old dictators) is adding blasphemous insult to their injury.
Vasquez on 14/9/2012 at 07:31
Quote Posted by Illuminatus
It's all that hot blood from the warm Mediterranean climate riling em up! Us Northerners have a cooler disposition, etc /1850s worldview
If this was for me, I didn't mean us Northerners are somehow superior, not at all. But since animals adapt their survival strategies to the environment, why not humans? Not in as straightforward way as animals, but maybe partly following the same principles?
Finns
are generally more reserved than many other nationalities. Part of that surely has to do with a small population - you don't have to be super-social when there's not many people around - but considering that our country is FULL of trees, and although I know there are varietys of terrains and landscapes in Middle East, there's much more open flatland than we have.
So, in the woodsy North, when you notice a stranger and don't know what he's up to, it makes sense to hide in the woods and observe him from a distance before deciding whether you should greet him or keep hiding.
But where you can see miles away and there's not many places to hide quickly, you have to either run or meet the stranger(s), and if there are whole families or flocks of sheep that make fleeing difficult, the latter is more probable. But you have to be very wary, and since the world has been even more violent and lawless in the past (in the North, too, of course), maybe it has lowered the threshold to react aggressively at the slightest sign of danger, and pull the whole family or tribe to the fight?
This is (again) just my layman's way of toying with ideas, so don't take it too seriously ;)
Briareos H on 14/9/2012 at 07:50
Quote Posted by Vasquez
Finns
are generally more reserved than many other nationalities.
And Swedes are inbred poseurs and Norwegians are NSBM-listening church burners. Tells you about that nordic attitude. I would lay low if I were you, Mrs. :mad:
Vasquez on 14/9/2012 at 07:58
I said "generally", you grump :p We are becoming more and more open, though, maybe has to do with the urbanization.
