SubJeff on 2/9/2007 at 21:36

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Yeah, but there are 2 ways to approach it:
1. Make it for the "non-hardcore", which may or may not do well but which will certainly be a farce of some sort, and which will be universally derided if it does fail.
2. Make it for the hardcore, which may or may not do well but which will be a good game and thus more likely to succeed.

People like stealth. Ever since it's inception as a gametype it's grown in popularity - so much so that even in games that don't need it there are stealth components.

People will buy a game and play it despite massive faults. People will love a game if it's done right.

SubJeff on 2/9/2007 at 22:07

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Ja ja. It would be very easy, and progressive, to set the game up with 2 (or 3) different strands in a Dark Messiah fashion - where the end result is still being a Thief, but one who specialises in certain things.

Look, Thief is an RPG in the strictest and purest use of the name. Forget the other so called RPGs - they are in fact stats based and thus stats ruled/forced.

In Thief you are as good or as bad a Thief as you actually are given the skillset you have. You do not roll dice to sneak well - you sneak well with the hiding skills you have because YOU choose the best path, tools, method or timing.

If you want to make a popularist Thief game that allows people to be Assassins/whatever then just allow for character progression down a very narrow path. You could choose to be a Ghoster or an Assassin, with skills tailored appropriately. Start off with basic sneak skills and have the option to learn better combat/killing skills or better sneaking skills (or a mix).

Combine with the city environment I've previously described: just like the way stealing too much will heighten security, killing alot (and not disposing of the bodies properly - like down disused wells or sewers etc) will heighten security, with more combat ready guards, deadly traps used by citizens that are legal because of the threat, etc.

SubJeff on 3/9/2007 at 01:39

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So now I've had a think about this...

You need a base of a suitable engine this time, preferably one that can stream levels in a Dungeon Master fashion. Then you need good writers, plot, sounds, and voice acting (I thought some it in TDS was pretty ropey).

Persistent world with a day-night cycle where your actions have consequences.

So - this skill system then. The way I see it you have 2 aspects to player ability in-game; player skill and simulated skills.
Player skills: how good you are.
Simulated skills: how good your character is.

In most "traditional" RPGs there is no division. In FPS/RPG crossovers there is some division, like using a bow in Dark Messiah or Morrowind where you have to aim but the damage/hit likelyhood is "dice" based.
Think of the division like this; in modern beat-em ups your character has simulated skills, but how well he uses them is determined by how good you are with them. In Soul Caliber 2 I usually, 90% of the time, use Kilik. Now if you use Kilik against me (also playing as Kilik) we have the same simulated skill set, but my skill with Kilik is far superior to that of any noob's.

In Thief we have a basic skill set: hiding in shadows, using a dagger, a bow, lockpicking, mantling, jumping.

I propose 2 tailored skill sets - Ghost and Assassin. Ghost skills are detection avoidance skills, Assassin skills are combat skills.

I favour a very realistic and unforgiving damage system, for you and the AI.
Hits to the body have 3 levels of damage - 1.glancing blow that just cuts/hurts and only stuns/slows you, 2.serious wounds that bleed and will cause death if bleeding continues, 3.critical hit that disables the part hit.
Hit level of 1 anywhere stuns/slows you for a moment.
Hit level of 2 or 3 not to the limbs: to the face = dead, to the chest(heart) = dead, to the chest(lung) = dead soon, to the abdomen = dead pretty soon. Hits to arms or legs: 2. stuns AND will cause death if you don't stop the bleeding, 3. disables that limb until you have it attended to and will kill if you don't stop the bleeding - this means that you can not use it properly for the rest of a mission, but since the missions are not discreet in my model you can just run for it (or hobble) and come back when you're better. Of course they'll be ready for you next time...

With this in mind here are some sample skills:
Ghost
High jumping - allowing you to mantle onto higher objects
Wall climbing - where the wall is of suitable type
Wall shimmy - like Sam Fisher
Acrobatics - free running skills, like the abilities in the upcoming Mirror's Edge for PS3
Catfall - just like the potion!
Advanced picking - for doors that can't be ordinarily picked
Safe cracking - like picking doors, you can still fail if your player skill is poor
Trap/secret detection - ability to search for traps/secrets
Trap disarmament - like lock picking and safe cracking this gives you the ability to attempt a disarm, but poor player skill will still mean you fail
Advanced rope arrow use - swinging on ropes, using them as lines to slide across/tightrope on
Enhanced stealth - you don't get seen even if someone walks right past you
Wind arrow crafting - like the wind arrow in The Inverted Manse!
Stealth magic access - use of scrolls to invoke Jedi Mind trick like stupor, last 5 minute memory wiping, limited invisibility, enhanced silent walking on noisy surfaces

Assassin
Silent dagger kills - essentially a silent throatcut, leaves blood on the floor
Ability to parry swords with the dagger - normally not possible, naturally
Silent killshots with the bow - headshots are now throatshots, kills silently
Neckbreak - silent kill that leaves no blood
Light armour use - provides some protection when hit so body shots are less likely to be level 2 or 3 in damage
Poison use - poisoned blades that have paralysing/slowing or killing effects
Faster bow drawing - in a Dark Messiah style so you can use the bow to more effect in a melee situation
Limb targeting - the ability to disable an arm or a leg with the dagger, and so disarm your opponent in some cases
Ambidextrous weapon use - ability to fight with left arm if right arm is disabled
Unarmed combat - ability to fight without weapons against an armed or unarmed opponent

Even with the Assassin skills maxed out you can't really take on 2 people at once, especially if they have ranged weapons and are any good with a bow. Therefore you still have to sneak, and the game is still about stealth, it's still Thief. Tweak as required.

Scots Taffer on 3/9/2007 at 04:55

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Not bad, SE. Not bad at all.

As I said earlier, any character set in the Thief universe would do fine - TDP prequel Garret can work too, if you leave the Keepers/Pagans to outside influences only heard once or twice and interactions are kept to an indirect minimum - whereupon you could do selective character skillset development like you've suggested, but based in a world that isn't the usual fantasy rigamarole

Taking the Thief Universe, which is decently populated and could be very easily (by a talented writer or team of writers) expanded and fleshed out into a living and breathing city where the actions have consequences and although the idea of factions (like in DS) isn't necessarily implemented, alliances and allegiances could definitely be struck, but overlaying ALL of this, would be the simple cold necessities of making the character thieve or thieve and murder by trade.

Goldmoon Dawn on 4/9/2007 at 04:11

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Amen. He earned some cred back in the late Ultima days, especially for his work on the various "part VIIs". After that crap he sold to the fans about TDS, he would be wise to stay away from much more than just the Thief franchise.



Talk about a dream come true. Throw in Randy and Terri for good measure.

:ebil: