Publishers are eying Thief again...

SubJeff on 5/9/2007 at 21:52

Yeah, you've totally misunderstood what I mean by hardcore and non-hardcore.

By non-hardcore I mean a game that is just aimed at the mass-market and is intended to just appeal to a wide range of people. For this to be the case it would lose some of it's Thief elements and end up being Sneaker Medieval Shooter Version Whatever (which TDS suffered from quite a bit).

It is the unfortunate nature of art or entertainment - to excel in any one area requires eschewing aspects of others. Thief is a game aimed a niche audience with niche gameplay.

Quote:

f they make Thief a hit then we will more Thief gameplay with better graphics, better gameplay, better phisics, better AI, better FMs.

This is just pure naivety. I don't mean to be rude but I'm guestimating your age to be around 14. Pray tell.

Specter on 5/9/2007 at 23:24

I’ve been wanting to weigh in on this, but I haven’t been sure of how to express what I think. Normally my thoughts are expressed by others here. I have a lot of respect for New Horizon's opinions, as they often mirror my own and are expressed very well.

Anyways, I am of the opinion that Thief could be successful, or could have been successful, with the right kind of change. When advancing something, you don’t make fundamental changes to the game; you build upon and expand on the things that made the game successful enough to warrant sequels. That said, one needs to identify what made the original Thief great. For me, atmosphere is absolutely without equal. Just looking at Thief wallpapers makes me very nostalgic. That said, the single biggest disappointment for me was the lack of atmosphere in T3. That was the result of a number of things. A major one was the cartoonish feel of the game. People were ridiculous in action and speech. You needn’t look farther than the Pagans to know what I mean. Another problem was the load zones. While we would ideally like to be rid of them all together, assuming they must be present, their implementation was nonetheless not well done in T3. Big blue clouds with prompts terribly removed from the atmosphere.

Secondly, the notion that you can create a large vibrant city while at the same time working within size restrictions (very small ones) seems paradoxical to me. If a large open city was attempted, it absolutely must include many areas of exploration. Many alternate routes, and many many accessible buildings. That said, the buildings need not ALL be accessible. Something I remember from the original Thief games was the illusion of life. How many times did one walk past a window and hear the noise of people inside? How simple that is, and yet effective! Again, atmosphere is key.

The original Thief world was very dark. Hero or not, Garrett was a criminal living in a world of criminality. Yes, there are rich parts of the city, but there were also slums, and industrial areas, and people who eeked out a living any way they could. T3 lacked all of this. The ‘rich’ areas weren’t that rich (or didn’t feel that way), the slums weren’t that slummy (or didn’t feel that way), and the world/city was pretty barren, and pretty small. (Or at least it felt that way!!) While this is my opinion only, I would like to think that some people agree with me. I ask now, then, how was this image of the city/world/life developed? Many of the things I mentioned weren’t really in the original games. They were alluded to, or over heard, or described in the movies. (On that note, I think the Rust Monkey animations absolutely must/should come back. They went a very long way to setting mood) Game-play need not be changed. The game can be expanded on and improved by the things I mentioned.

Thief should not be made to cater to a wide audience. There is a market for the game (or there was) but attempting to expand the audience ended up alienating some fans. Thief was about sneaking. You had the freedom to kill everything, but it wasn’t easy. When I first tried TDP, I played like the typical shooter player. And I died, a lot. I got frustrated, a lot. But the story drew me back in and I LEARNED to be stealthy. The creativity of getting in, stealing, and getting out in one piece is far more rewarding to me than simple killing. Trying to cater to all styles of play only weakens them collectively. In addition, it seems to me that games are rarely difficult anymore. Why is that? When playing T3, and I was introduced to the Keeper Assassins, I was pumped; thinking I had a big challenge ahead of me. Elite guards trained to be elite users of stealth. And no where else was I more disappointed than the moment they gave me the ability to ‘hear’ them. Then, they turn out to be extremely unstealthy and more violent than the enemies in a game like FEAR. Thief should be challenging, rather than open to everyone and everything. True, new people were brought in, but at the expense of an already established fan-base, is it really worth it? Were the X-box sales worth the cost of development for it? Would the PC sales have been significantly higher had the PC been the only developed platform? I believe it would have been.

I suppose, to conclude, (for those of you who actually read this to the end) Thief, if re-attempted, would have to be understood for what it is, and what it is not. Atmosphere is paramount. A large city would be nice, if implemented properly. It must be dark, gritty, and full. Old cities were not spacious. They were crowded and filthy. So too should the world of Thief. The game should focus its efforts on stealth. People can still kill, but it should be allowed for rather than designed for, which is to say, give us the sword and offensive arrows, but don’t design the game for them. In addition, the game should not shy away from being difficult. In this regard, I’m not sure Bethesda is a good choice. Oblivion could have been so much more if they hadn’t made it so terribly easy and repetitive. However, if they approached Thief with a clear vision of what Thief is, and what it is not, then a good game is not impossible. (Just highly unlikely, sadly.)

So, now that my opinions are laid out, feel free to dissect and disagree.

SubJeff on 5/9/2007 at 23:42

I agree.

And that "scaling difficulty" thing that is apparently in Oblivion (I haven't played it, only Morrowind) is such a massive gameplay flaw that I'm really not sure I could trust Bethesda to include adequate difficulty.

Specter on 6/9/2007 at 00:48

It is a huge flaw for sure. I remember getting my ass handed to me lots of times in Morrowind, and I had to get better to succeed. In Oblivion, you can die, but only if you are fighting 7 things at once. Im not sure how that looks like a good idea, even on paper. The most insane thing is that when you reach a higher level (around 30) everyone and their brother has full Daedric armor. Doing that removes all value and use in leveling. Quite a disappointment given all the good qualities of the game.

Beleg Cúthalion on 6/9/2007 at 07:59

I think your beloved atmosphere (and the lack of it in TDS) is often some kind of illusion. I'd say that almost every game with far better graphics than TDP/TMA would have killed your (understanding of) atmosphere, since it would have been inevitably different. I even think that if someone re-created the original levels from T1/2 in T3Ed or any other machine you would have the same feeling of uneasiness. In TDS there were rich class areas, slums and also a few parts reminding me of S&R, what concerns industrial things, but if one keeps telling to himself that it is not right...somehow...it's clear that he doesn't feel any atmopshere he's wishing to feel. TDS had it's faults (and for the 1456th time: it's even worse in the non-English versions because they are English) but it had a certain amount of atmosphere which I liked a lot; mainly built upon the somehow still-life-like graphics with some melancholic music.

PS: I think it would be interesting to try TDS with the music of TDP/TMA. If I'll come far enough I'll try it out myself, but I guess there are some methods to cheat the subjective feeling of atmosphere.

SubJeff on 6/9/2007 at 20:27

TDS does have it's own atmosphere, there is no denying that.

But T1/2 had a different atmosphere, and it was crafted by the plot, the writing and the sounds. The graphics aren't that important. IMHO it is the ambient sounds that really did it - they were awesome.

RavynousHunter on 6/9/2007 at 20:28

Personally, I dont see why hardcore taffers are afraid of a T4... Thats like being homophobic, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Its not going to decrease the value of the previous games, and if it sucks, it might even make them MORE valuable as a shining example of ... perfection. I still think a Thief with a customizable character would be neat, itd make it more immersive IMO because you can make a character that looks like YOU, or your fantasy thief, or whatever. Thats one of the reasons i liked the Tony Hawks Pro Skater series, Fable, and Oblivion, I could make the character look almost any way i wanted, and it made it more immersive.

Of course, you gotta have bitchin gameplay, kickass visuals, badass sound, and all the thiefy goodness. Personally, Id like to see a fighting system similar to that of Prince of Persia, as your character gains more Agility, you can learn more skills and acrobatics, being able to leap across long chasms, run along walls, or bound up them, and being able to augment your abilities with different magics, like using Hammer magic to make you stronger and deadlier to undead/pagans, or use Pagan magic to transform yourself into a werewolf or something.

Another interesting idea is to place the story as sort of a tangent universe to Thief 1/2, involving another good thief who eventually could become Garrett's greatest competition, and you could gain the ability (somehow) to break into the Keeper compound(s) and steal their books to learn different Keeper spells, like invisibility or celerity. I mean, come on, Keepers love to write stuff down, so why not write down their spells and whatnot so that their trainees can learn them when the time comes? :thumb:

Just another 50 cents from me. :)

jtr7 on 6/9/2007 at 20:38

When it really comes down to it, I don't think anybody fears or loathes the idea of a Thief 4. The fear and loathing (not necessarily drug induced) comes from knowing that a badly-made Thief 4 is a greater possiblity than a great Thief 4. We know that something magical and mysterious (not necessarily involving a walrus, and egg-man, and a tour bus) will be necessary, and those things cannot be planned.

The first Thief had the developers guessing and hoping that all the crazy ideas they were coming up with would make a game that didn't suck. Before they were done, they realized they had made something greater than the sum of its parts, and they had become fans themselves.

Long live LGS!

Jeshibu on 6/9/2007 at 20:41

RavynousHunter:
No offense, but I'm glad they don't let you near game development. I've always liked games where you play a set character more than ones that allow for pretty much any sort of character. The latter is more open, but loses a lot of its focus. This is fine in RPGs, where that's pretty much the point, or sports games, where there is no plot to lose focus of, but I like my Thief games with a narrative. Also, the PoP style acrobatics and combat don't sound very stealthy or Thief-like. Hammer and pagan magic has so far been either offensive, or a very short boost to combat abilities for allies. I doubt you'd be able to customize a character with it in the Thief world. There's also more to keeper spells than being able to read and reproduce their glyphs, if TDS is to be believed.

RavynousHunter on 6/9/2007 at 20:56

Quote Posted by Jeshibu

Acrobatics could greatly aid stealth, if a guard is chasing you, being able to run up a wall to get on top of it would be a great way to make an escape if youre out of equipment. And who says that the Keepers dont record how to use their spells? They write EVERYTHING down (if Garrett is to be believed), so that would be a logical conclusion given the circumstances.

As for your little quip about whoever not letting me near game development, you obviously do not know me. I intend to goto college to study in that very field. The only way that well know weather or not it sucks is if its made, otherwise, well have nothing to gauge it on except speculation.

Aside from that, while i may not agree with your opinion, i will respect your right to have it, and wont tell you youre "wrong" for having gone "against me." I can, however, still call you a jackass for your starting comment. :sly: