Readables in Fan Missions – too long, Audiolog Syndrome

Judith on 14/12/2017 at 12:30

Keep 'em short, make long fluff optional, spend more time on gameplay. /thread ;)

DarkThief Darek on 15/12/2017 at 01:49

Quote Posted by Judith

Instead of debating the length of readables though, I'd rather see a discussion on how to make a level interesting from a gameplay perspective, so FMs can have more options like this: (https://youtu.be/lamAqI8v7Y0?t=1m12s)

You focus a lot on gameplay in your posts.
As trefoilknot already said, this thread was not about gameplay.
But it seems to me you are generally frustrated by the amount of FMs with a lack of gameplay. Maybe it’s worth to state your opinion in a separate thread. I even kind of agree that there are FM authors out there with very little focus on the Thief gameplay.
I for myself know that I like the original gameplay and like to recreate that (not Dishonored by the way) – but if you have additional ideas/suggestions on that, I would really like to hear them.

Judith on 15/12/2017 at 09:33

That's true, because focusing on reading in videogames is kind of doing disservice to what you create, and most FM makers do exactly that. It's not even lack of resources or limited abilities of FM makers. Making the player reader or viewer seems like a choice even for "big names" here, releasing campaigns and working in teams, with voice actors etc. They choose long readables, lengthy conversations and voice overs, and music ripped from movies to make player a vehicle for their "cinematic" story, which is a step back even from basic Thief gameplay. It's not exactly surprising, that's what typically happens with fandoms :)

That's not to say designing stealth gameplay is easy. It is harder than in any other game. But there are presentations on that floating around the web since at least 2005. The earliest document I have on Design Fundamentals of Stealth Gameplay in the Thief Series is from 2002. Level Building for Stealth Gameplay is from 2006. What happened here? - Environmental storytelling is a 2010 presentation. AFAIR, I linked those docs here several times on similar occasions, so I don't think making another thread with those will actually change anything. It's 2017, and the knowledge is there, but it still seems like noone is interested in gameplay design that much. Most people just make FMs they'd like to play, and that's it.

Well, fortunately there are a few, e.g. Eternauta made Kingsbridge which felt like a conscious design excercise (but that was long ago already). Kingsal already proved twice that he gets Thief 1 design and you can have that in TDM as well. There's at least one FM in the works that I know of, that is focused on the player, and the joy of taking control over a territory dominated by guards :) I haven't found much more than that. I can only hope that this trend is on the rise, and there will be more new authors doing this, because audience will only benefit from it.

nicked on 15/12/2017 at 10:40

I think for a lot of authors, creating stealth gameplay is not high on the list of priorities. A large percentage of FMs play more like adventure games in a 3D space, with enemy placement and stealth challenges being an afterthought (not all obviously, but enough for it to be a recognisable trend). If that's what you're going for, then long readables, cryptic puzzles and suchlike should be expected and even desirable. The problem is that there's often no way to differentiate between a "classic Thief stealth" level and an adventure game with a few stealth element until you've played it, so people expecting the former feel cheated.

Melan on 15/12/2017 at 11:05

Quote Posted by nicked

This is a good observation, and something I have also noticed in the FM community. One of the reasons Thief has become a vehicle for all these different creative efforts is a lack of good alternatives. Most games shipping with editors (a limited and shrinking number) are completely incapable of realising a fan's vision of an interactive, immersive puzzle game, or anything more complicated than a shooter or a walking sim. Meanwhile, Thief's basic gameplay is adequate, and its toolset, even if not ideal, is quite versatile and adaptable. You can develop some really oddball ideas into something playable if you are dedicated, and even the non tech-savvy can build a simple mission. I think this diversity and experimentation - even if it is sometimes to the detriment of core stealth/exploration gameplay - is a strength of our community.

Specifically WRT readables, people rely on them because they are not a skill/resource-intensive asset to create. Everyone can write, while very few can animate and voice act a briefing video, or apply complicated scripting.

PinkDot on 15/12/2017 at 12:41

I agree with Melan on the versatility of Dromed and the Thief game. You can utilize a relatively broad range of gameplay styles with this engine and editor. FMs that I remember the most were those, which do not strive to be pure stealth games, like The Great Tree, The Summit, Rose Cottage or that Nameless Voice's one, where you did some exorcisms to get rid of a ghost in house - even if a lot of them were more like short experiments.
TDM on the other hand from the start was focused on the stealth only and implemented a lot of limitations and you just get a narrower game play styles in the FMs.
Having said that, I like the way readables work in TDM - the fact that reading them does not pause the game, probably is a factor enforcing mission authors to be more concise. (although I don't know if this is actually a case). I wonder if we could get readables working like that in NewDark too? Maybe some object teleported in front of the camera, with camera locked to a location (if the book or scroll is not meant to be taken into inventory)?

DarkThief Darek on 15/12/2017 at 12:41

It's interesting how the debate changed from readables to gameplay and the Thief FM community as a whole.

I guess there is certainly a lot of unheard opinions out there from FM players - maybe we should create another thread.
I agree with Judith, nicked and Melan on the gameplay part. On the one hand, the community use Thief to create something different, which is creativity in and of itself and should be respected.
I find it awesome what the community can build with the Dark Engine, but on the other hand it makes it sometimes difficult for Thief players to find FMs which are actually dedicated recreating the Thief gameplay style.
Recently I watched an hour-long video analysis of the Thief gameplay design.
It was a really good in-depth analysis of the game - especially on the Bank level of Thief II - and I can really recommend: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTRC_LHi_GA)

I disagree with Judith that only very few FM exists which recreate the Thief gameplay.
There are many out, even if some have a bit too much readables for their own good (as Melan stated correctly it's the easiest way and sometimes you have to explain certain stuff which is not canon - because ... you can't retell the original missions all over again and again).

I don't think too much readables should be a deal breaker here to be not a true original Thief FM if the gameplay and the mission design is right.
But therefore, I made this thread to get a good middle ground.

And to be clear:
This thread focusses on readables to improve the quality for the players and get the same quality as the original missions - but also tell your own stories and not just retell the canon stuff we all already know.

So, of course this thread will focus on writing text, but you have to focus on a lot of other things as well if you make a FM.
You can't just build a cool gameplay FM with no background story whatsoever. Garrett should always have a motive to break into this and that and also know about the people he steals from and so on. Making a FM is nothing easy and we need to talk about all aspects of it.

Edit: (Posted with PinkDot on the same minute)
I also find the idea of TDM readables better than the Thief 1/2/3 solution. But I guess we don't have a convenient way to implement that in the Dark Engine.
The advantage of TDM is the not locked camera. You can still look around and see if something is approaching. I don't know if we can recreate exactly that.
The same applies to reading the map. I never liked the additional menu screen from the old Thief games and TDM has the perfect solution for it.

Judith on 15/12/2017 at 14:09

It's true that we either see games with limited editing capabilities (e.g. Doom 2016's SnapMap), or just big engines with no content at all, like Unity or Unreal. There's no middle ground except maybe for Unreal Tournament (is it still in the works? last time I checked it seemed fully outsourced to the community, with Epic only doing some QA). No wonder people stick to older engines that have some assets and systems already in place.

As for recreating Thief gameplay, I'd love to hear about more missions that do this consciously. I appreciate and notice when designers take extra steps, and treat 3d space as sandbox with both problems to solve and providing tools for the player to solve them.

Some middle ground with readables could be reached by dividing them into mission-critical stuff and fluff. Or at least by triggering the right objectives/player monologue, if the clue on what to do next is buried in a readable that is several pages long. Thief 3 actually had Notes system, which was used for reminders of what you can do in the city hub. You could use that to put that crucial information from long books below the objectives.

Btw. after a few months of expriments, I don't think TDM is severly limited in terms of gameplay options. E.g. it allows for almost parkour, quasi-platformer gameplay, it's just noone have really created any levels that would leverage it (yet). It's really hard to get back to T2 FMs and its super-dated movement model, when you have something as fluid as Doom3/TDM at your disposal.

skacky on 15/12/2017 at 14:09

I'm of the opinion that, ultimately, readables aren't even necessary. The Ravine for TDM has a very minimalist backstory and no readables whatsoever, and yet it manages to be one of the most interesting missions ever released for TDM. The Widow's Ire, back when it was only two missions, also had only half a dozen readables. Your imagination and the environment fill the blanks.

john9818a on 15/12/2017 at 16:56

Quote Posted by DarkThief Darek

Thanks for your input so far. :)
Still in the process to build my new FM, but when I write the texts for it this thread will help greatly to improve the quality.
The idea to put everything with gameplay hints into the inventory sounds good on paper, but sometimes when it’s a small hint for some optional loot or something I don’t know if it’s worth it.
The replacement of the book system with other things is pretty much out of scope for me and my intentions to build OM like missions. But it would have been a cool thing if that was initially in the game.

Keep the opinions coming.

You focus a lot on gameplay in your posts.
As trefoilknot already said, this thread was not about gameplay.
But it seems to me you are generally frustrated by the amount of FMs with a lack of gameplay. Maybe it’s worth to state your opinion in a separate thread. I even kind of agree that there are FM authors out there with very little focus on the Thief gameplay.
I for myself know that I like the original gameplay and like to recreate that (not Dishonored by the way) – but if you have additional ideas/suggestions on that, I would really like to hear them.

It's not very time consuming to make a readable go into a player's inventory, and at the same time the player can drop readables after they're no longer needed.