Azaran on 16/2/2015 at 21:52
Quote Posted by Harvester
You know what, I can agree with that, unless you mean to say that all religion is intolerant and that this effect always happens when people become religious.
Not at all, but there are inherently intolerant faiths (e.g. Evangelical Christianity, Wahhabi Islam) that tend to corrupt people. I'm pretty sure there are many people who convert to Christianity and it makes them better people, but the ones who turn out bad always make the most noise. Same for Christian charities; there might be good ones out there that actually do
real charity work, but the ones that have the most money, influence, and power, are the ones whose mission is to destroy the world's cultures. And the stories I've seen of people converting to intolerant faiths tend to turn out badly. Often they even reject their families and friends for refusing to convert with them. Just like when joining a cult
Pyrian on 16/2/2015 at 21:58
I got super curious at one point and had a lot of in-depth conversations with various born again "people of insufficient consideration". What I learned was that without exception... They were dogmatic, obnoxious, intolerant bastards well before they found a faith to validate their behavior. :p
Harvester on 17/2/2015 at 17:45
Quote Posted by Azaran
I'm pretty sure there are many people who convert to Christianity and it makes them better people, but the ones who turn out bad always make the most noise.
Couldn't agree more, but that touches on what I said earlier. The intolerant, fundamentalist believers make the most noise and the damage they do is highly visible. But the people who became better people through religion are just quietly being better people in the background, busy trying to lead as good a life as they can, inspired by their faith. They are not being loudmouthed, intolerant fundamentalists on the internet or on the streets, and the good things they do are not visible to anyone but their immediate family, neighbors, friends, co-workers and religious community. But those people are still better people than they would be without their religion. As I said before, the negative effects of religion are more visible and can be somewhat measured, while the positive effects cannot be scientifically measured, but they are there.
So my point is, when atheists name all the things they would be rid of if they could just get rid of religion, they would also be rid of the good effects that religion has on those believers who are not intolerant fundamentalists but are inspired by their faith to lead good lives. I'm not sure what the net result would be, to be frank, because as I said, those positive effects cannot really be measured and quantified but are probably more substantial than many atheists realize. I know that from spending a lot of time around Christians of the non-intolerant, non-fundamentalist kind and observing the positive effects of their religious convictions.
Maybe those positive effects are even there with many Evangelical Christians, but the people who are positively affected are just not the type of holier-than-thou, loudmouthed Bible-thumpers that get the most attention. I don't really know how many fundamentalist preachers there are in the US Evangelical community, it might be more than I would like, but I also know some who are not. Take someone like the New York Presbyterian Church reverend Tim Keller, I haven't read all his books (which frequently hit the NY Times bestseller list, he's definitely an inspiring teacher to many) but I read a lot of his sermons and I think if people go to that church every Sunday and listen to him and take his message to heart, they will have less of a chance to become bigoted fundies and have more of a chance to be inspired to lead good lives, because that's certainly what I take away from it when I read one of his sermons. So maybe there are more decent Evangelical Christians than you think, you just don't hear a lot about them because they concern themselves with trying to be a good person in their immediate surroundings, instead of being judgmental jackasses on the Internet, on the streets or in the media.
Just my $0.02
faetal on 17/2/2015 at 18:39
Quote Posted by Harvester
those people are still better people than they would be without their religion
How do we know / measure this? Would these people be worse or better people if they'd happened to be born in a country with a different prevailing religion? With no religion at all, would they be worse people (given that's a corollary of being better
with religion)?
Pyrian on 17/2/2015 at 19:26
Quote Posted by faetal
How do we know / measure this?
With a controlled study, double blinded and randomized! The samples not being allowed to know what religion they devoutly observe may conceivably interfere with the results.
faetal on 17/2/2015 at 20:04
Exactly. The idea that these are mediocre or bad people being made awesome by religion is a big claim which needs more than assumption to make it fly.
Pyrian on 17/2/2015 at 22:10
Says the guy whose position is that mediocre or good people are being made awful by religion.
And to a substantially more significant degree.
Really, I think the heaviest burden of proof is on you.
Here you are saying how dare people not have specific proof to refute your unsupported assumptions.
heywood on 17/2/2015 at 22:58
I kind of agree with Harvester. On one hand, I think we are capable of memetically evolving to a post-religious society, but we're not there yet.
Our cultural traditions still tie religion and morality together. faetal made the point earlier that morality is not derived from or dependent on religion, which is true. But where I grew up, public schools didn't teach morality and ethics. That part of childhood education was traditionally delegated to Sunday school at church. Even now, a lot of my friends with school age children have started going to church again. None of them are particularly religious, none were attending church beforehand, some hadn't attended a church service in 20 years (not counting weddings & funerals). They're attending now specifically to get their kids in CCD/Sunday school because they believe the values education they get will make them better people. I even have one friend who used to be a Dawkins quoting atheist but his wife is now dragging him and the kids to church and he's OK with it (still not a believer though).
I'm an agnostic but I attended and was actively involved in church throughout my childhood. When I look back, I think I'm probably better off because of it. Even if the Christian beliefs didn't stick with me, a lot of the lessons did. I'm still not planning to take my kids to church, but I honestly can't rule out changing my mind, because I don't see secular alternatives for early organized education in morality, ethics, and values. So I guess I'm saying that if you pull religious education out of our culture it will leave a void that some new tradition will have to fill.
Tony_Tarantula on 18/2/2015 at 01:34
Agreed, it can go both ways.
A good example is the U.S. Bill of Rights. I can't go into much explanation tonight (I've got a project deadline tonight), but keep in mind that one of the core tenets is that the rights of citizens are "God Given". That basic idea was invaluable in keeping rights like free speech and due process alive as long as they lasted because it powerfully conditions people to reject any encroachment of those rights. Take that divine command away and there's no reason why the "smart, educated" people in government shouldn't be allowed to take away due process for the good of the state.
heywood on 18/2/2015 at 04:01
Tony - God is not referenced in the Bill of Rights or in any other part of the US Constitution. And revoking anything in the Bill of Rights would require an amendment. I think you may have rushed to post and got the Bill of Rights confused with the Declaration of Independence which says:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".
