Platinumoxicity on 22/6/2009 at 20:44
There has been lots of changes, not always for the better in little details in the Thief world and story, but changing them back to something better, or to what they used to be, ends up breaking the oh-so-sacred "continuity". Now, what are the things that you want to change when changing them slightly breaks the continuity, but would make the game/world better?
My suggestions:
-Garrett's fame: In TDS everyone knew what Garrett looked like even though they had never seen him personally. This needs to change. How can a man who's rarely been seen by anyone be known of at all, let alone by appearance, by everyone in all factions? Garrett shouldn't be a known celebrity among anyone else but the City Watch.
-Pagan Necromancy: No. The pagans couldn't possibly have caused every incident of undead in the world. There is a more mysterious explanation than a lone bum in a sewer with a magic wand. They already have a whole supernatural army on their side. It was a letdown when the life-loving pagans hijacked the life-hating undead too. :(
-Pagan mentality: The pagans used to have prayers that loathed the dead stone and metal that the manfools used to build their homes. I didn't like the fact that those primitive forest-dwellers moved into those stone buildings and started waving steel swords. It felt wrong, and diminished the contrast between them and the Hammerites. Also, pagans shouldn't be actively attacking the Hammerites. Pagans should be the oppressed rebels that quietly sabotage the infrastructure. ;)
-The Eye: Not really retcon but, what a lame end indeed for such an interesting "character". I hope it isn't just quietly forgotten as a mere key to activate a stupid glyph. It should at least be mentioned. :(
-Burricks, spiders and robots: Burricks, spiders and robots for taff's sake! :mad:
Some people can't stand it when continuity is broken even insignificantly. If you're not one of them, tell me what you would want to change. Not any radical changes, please, like Viktoria or Karras or the Trickster or nothing major like that. ;)
jtr7 on 22/6/2009 at 21:20
A return to Garrett's facelessness. There are aspects of continuity that are sacred and others that were mistakes. Most of us recognize them when we see them. A Mechanist Viktrola in the Cradle decades before it was invented, admitted to be a continuity error. The lack of technology, including Hammer technology. The too strong medieval flavor, ignoring much of the strength of the mix of several decades and eras. The richness of everything, especially cultures and the full City infrastructure, needs to come back. Wardens and Thieves' Guild, though clamped down on, and less cocky.
Ex-Keepers as imbalanced and angry badasses without special powers, unless an Elder is able to learn other somatic spells such as available to clerics and mages. The return of somatic spell-casting so clerics and mages aren't inexplicably dependent on wands. Dyan's staff! No tattoos that look like the common misused tribal tats that have been around for over a decade, and that look more like the Trickster's and Larkspurs, but not so common, and not glowing. Mushrooms, and bioluminescent ones. Spiders, burricks, and rust-mites that actually do something like cause damage to metal like termites to wood and not impervious.
Pagans are connected with necromancy. Not the cause of it, but channeling it, because it's very much a part of chaotic nature in that world, so just like growing plants and speeding decay to hyper speeds, they can work with necromantic energy. But no, they are not the source. Yes, the pagans should be working to undermine the Hammers construction and destruction of nature.
There are a thousand things that the world can bring forth for a new story, so there's a lot more room to work with, as long as one is not ignoring what was established.
Platinumoxicity on 22/6/2009 at 22:35
Quote Posted by jtr7
Pagans are connected with necromancy. Not the cause of it, but channeling it, because it's very much a part of chaotic nature in that world, so just like growing plants and speeding decay to hyper speeds, they can work with necromantic energy. But no, they are not the source. Yes, the pagans should be working to undermine the Hammers construction and destruction of nature.
Was there any part besides the one pagan in the sewer in the entire series that pointed to pagans having anything to do with raising the dead? I can't remember a single moment. :confused:
(The Eye did it all by itself in the Old Quarter, not the pagans)
jtr7 on 22/6/2009 at 23:28
Nothing points to it precisely, but there's a pattern through all this:
The Pagan humans weren't at all-out war with the Hammers until TDS, more like isolated battles and skirmishes, but here's a reference to the Hammer Haunts, by a Pagan author, before a Trickster mission to get a famous sword to aid in retrieving The Eye:
Quote:
Builds your roofs of dead wood. Builds your walls of dead stone. Builds your dreams of dead thoughts. Comes crying laughing singing back to life, takes what you steal, and pulls the skins from your dead bones shrieking.
-- Clay tablet in an abandoned Trickster temple
The Hammerites are plagued by undead more than any other group. You will not find zombies around Pagan places, unless Hammers/Mechanists have interfered or invaded. Pagans worked to death by Hammers become zombies. The Hammers attribute undead to the Trickster, and they are rarely wrong about such information. The Pagans are free from undeath when left to themselves. I remind you that the Pagans had The Eye in their possession before the Hammers stole it, who hoped to "use" it back against the Pagans, whatever that meant.
The Trickster wanted The Eye, which we credit for the Cataclysm, though I believe the earthquake was the Trickster's failed attempt to get at it.
Even though neither the Hammers nor the Pagans could be trusted not to meddle with The Eye and it's containment, the Hammers, not the Pagans, were entrusted with keeping one or two Talismans (TDP or Gold).
I don't think this threat is related to zombies, but maybe Haunts:
Quote:
Woe to him that defies the tree for he shall be cast out into the world through the veils of pain and fire.
"Flames around you, flames, nothing but flames, burning your flesh"
Constantine calls forth disease:
Quote:
Flesh creep and scar, Smoothskins rough
Death not far, Manlings null
Magic barred [health potions?], Lethal cull
Manflesh part
Call the cold
Call the white
Bringsie forth sorrow's plight
The Eye is made of Earth, the Trickster is an Earth god, Azaran the Cruel was an Earth Mage who experimented with necromancy on animals.
The Eye somehow communicates this information to Con:
"The Eye, shows the marksey lines of power."
How does he know as much as he does about The Eye that unleashed all that undeath?
It's all pretty mysterious but the undeath connection favors the pagans and frustrates and grieves the Hammers.
These are ANCIENT words of prophecy, going back to
at least the early Keepers:
Quote:
Bow to the Woodsie Lord, and offer up your flesheye so that
his Eye of Stone may see, Manfool!
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems! And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
Did you think those ancient phrases were mere words, Manfool? [As if he'd heard them before! Not that he'd understand reversed Apparition-speak.] Look at me!
From TDS we are told the Eye belongs to no one, but it's loyalty can be bought with blood!
Mortis on 22/6/2009 at 23:48
What pagan in the sewers ? :wot:
jtr7 on 23/6/2009 at 00:46
The Pagan Shaman and his Necromancer's Wand Garrett can steal to prevent him from raising zombies in the Catacombs of Ft. Ironwood, to prevent the Hammers from burying the two-face Alfred Hurley, who attended Hammer services devoutly, but was also a Pagan to his sister's embarrassment, but which led to the Hammers and Pagans fighting over his dead body. Mossing the Pagan Cornerstones and planting the Pagan Sapling was said to feed the Necromancer Shaman's power to wreak havoc.
Stath MIA on 23/6/2009 at 01:53
I want change! Aside from the Pagan points I am in full agreement with you. On the matter of necromancy, I believe jtr is correct, there's no definite evidence that Pagans use necromancy however there is a lot to imply that at least the Trickster wielded the undead and the Hammers seem to believe that the Pagans were responsible, and they're rarely wrong about these things. Of them using the stone dwellings, they were constantly trying to "renovate" them to be more woodsie, therefore I tend to consider their in-city bases as works in progress and not liable to their strict policies.
One last thing I'd add to your list, toss out the girl from the end of DS. Let her simply vanish without another word.
Phyre on 23/6/2009 at 05:25
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
-Garrett's fame: In TDS everyone knew what Garrett looked like even though they had never seen him personally.
This. As much as I got a kick out of the 'Wanted' posters, I was bewildered by how everyone knew who Garrett was. Did he do a circuit on stage between TMA and TDS?
The everyday people shouldn't know what Garrett looks like, or even who he is really. Less still should they care.
I agree with what you said about the Pagan mentality too. The Pagans are more convincing as a stealthy, rebel band, than as a open faction.
Like jtr7 said, I'd like more of the steampunk feel and less of the medieval theme of TDS. Maybe the absence of the tech could be attributed to post-Mechanist backlash, and it could have a stronger presence in the next game.
Platinumoxicity on 23/6/2009 at 07:38
All that jtr7 said about the pagans is IMO just interpretation. How can the Hammerites still have any strength against the pagans if the pagans have:
-Rapid-growing plants to destroy buildings
-Giant spider demons
-Huge and powerful treebeasts
-Man-sized rat warriors
-Man-sized ape warriors
-Large Craybeasts from another world
-Deadly bugbeasts from another world
-Elementals
-Their own realm of chaos and destruction
-Perhaps even undead on their side
All this agaist the Hammerites that have:
-A few middle-aged monks with steel Hammers
-Some priests with undead-slaying blessings
-Holy water
With the hate-mongering mentality that the pagans had in TDS, the City should have been laying in ruin for a long time. The Hammerites never had a chance. :tsktsk:
jtr7 on 23/6/2009 at 08:01
Hahahahaha! Believe what you like, but don't ignore anything and try to debate it.
Thou dost greatly underestimate the Hammers' industriousness, pollutants, and whatever excuse people want to make for the fact that there is something they attribute to The Builder that imbues things with magic. A high priest with the Builder's Chisel gave the few Hammers the the strength to turn back the siege at the Hammer Temple, eh? The Builder's Chalice killed hundreds of Pagans through St. Edgar alone, and any unrighteous person on the battlefield who drank of the cup was consumed by fire. The Hammers' pollutants won't allow the Pagans' plants to grow. The Trickster, Viktoria, and his minions could not get at The Eye, even though he could open the earth and swallow civilizations. They are equal and different, with overlap, and it's fanon to suppose there is no god on the Hammers' side, when something is powerful enough to hold off the tangible Trickster and his minions and magic.
Anyway, explain why pagans don't suffer from undead at all, while the Hammers perpetually do.
