Platinumoxicity on 23/6/2009 at 08:25
Quote Posted by jtr7
Anyway, explain why pagans don't suffer from undead at all, while the Hammers perpetually do.
Maybe because the pagans never did any harm to anyone, like the Hammerites, building their buildings averywhere without asking, mining gold and iron from cursed mountains. The pagans never stole the Eye, making it mad and release death into the City. The pagans did nothing to deserve to be bugged by the undead. Good point, though,:thumb: but it makes the pagans even more unbalanced and unfair. :(
And if the haunts were made with Trickster's magic, why did they try to keep Garrett from stealing the Eye for the Trickster? :weird:
jtr7 on 23/6/2009 at 08:37
They were The Eye's minions. :weird:
The pagans never did harm to anyone? WHAAAAAA--?!?
They are far more bloodthirsty than the Hammers.
Platinumoxicity on 23/6/2009 at 08:44
Quote Posted by jtr7
They were The Eye's minions. :weird:
The pagans never did harm to anyone? WHAAAAAA--?!?
They are far more bloodthirsty than the Hammers.
Since when? In T1 there was no visible pagan faction, in T2 they were all unarmed, and the open fighting in TDS between pagans and Hammerites was just a very stupid gameplay decision.
jtr7 on 23/6/2009 at 08:51
I'm wondering what your problem is, here. :erm:
What's with the mind-f***?:weird:
Platinumoxicity on 23/6/2009 at 09:14
Quote Posted by jtr7
I'm wondering what your problem is, here. :erm:
What's with the mind-f***?:weird:
Beats me. :confused:
Stath MIA on 23/6/2009 at 15:17
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
Maybe because the pagans never did any harm to anyone
Your kidding right? Let's start from the beginning shall we:
1.The Trickster (the Pagan's god) quite possibly demolished the entire precursor civilization
2.He tricked Garrett into serving him and then ripped out his eye and left him to feed his plants
3.He killed/ordered his minions to kill a large number of unnamed people in his secret basement it Escape
4.He slaughtered a bunch of random civilians on his way to the Hammerite chapel in Bedfellows
5.He massacred the Hammers (though possibly excusable as they were outspoken enemies)
6.He planned to wipe out all of civilization (possibly excusable if you're a hippie)
I know you don't like their over-aggressive portrayal in DS (and I agree with you for the most part) so I'll ignore the street fights for the purpose of this discussion.
7.The Pagan's killed two random miners who accidentally stumbled into their territory (down the well, DS)
8.They apparently betrayed some poor family that actually supported them after they told them to stop overstocking their garden with Treebeasts (same mission, later on)
9.They, apparently under the Trickster's orders, assaulted the relatively peaceful Kurshok and killed a number of them all over a silly crown
10.(If you count it) the Pagan Necromancer decided to screw up some poor bloke's funeral, just to be mean
I'd say that's more than enough to establish a pattern and there is nothing to suggest that the Pagans have ever behaved any differently.
Maddermadcat on 23/6/2009 at 17:28
Quote Posted by Stath MIA
Your kidding right? Let's start from the beginning shall we:
1.The Trickster (the Pagan's god) quite possibly demolished the entire precursor civilization
2.He tricked Garrett into serving him and then ripped out his eye and left him to feed his plants
3.He killed/ordered his minions to kill a large number of unnamed people in his secret basement it Escape
4.He slaughtered a bunch of random civilians on his way to the Hammerite chapel in Bedfellows
5.He massacred the Hammers (though possibly excusable as they were outspoken enemies)
6.He planned to wipe out all of civilization (possibly excusable if you're a hippie)
That's the trickster, not the pagans as a group.
Quote Posted by Platinumtoxicity
Since when? In T1 there was no visible pagan faction, in T2 they were all unarmed, and the open fighting in TDS between pagans and Hammerites was just a very stupid gameplay decision.
The pagans weren't around in TDP because they kept out of the city. In TMA, however, the mechanists went so far as to venture out of the city and into the pagans' domain to eradicate them. TDS screwed the pagans up horribly, I think -- made them cruel, primitive, and terribly animal-like. It was as though they turned into TDP's apebeasts.
I'm fairly sure that LGS intended for the Trickster to be a completely forgotten god, though, and that the pagans were only invented after TDP.
EDIT: Just thought of something -- in the maw, we see how the Trickster is bringing his army to the City. With the trickster's death, the rift out of the maw of chaos would likely close, leaving his minions stranded and leaderless. Many of them would likely have been killed, but it's just as likely that many survived. I'd like to see a bugbeast hiding out in a sewer in Thief 4, perhaps. Those things were so wonderfully bizarre and creepy. :)
R Soul on 23/6/2009 at 21:11
I don't like the idea of pagans as peace loving hippies. I prefer the idea that they're generally peaceful, but if they're threatened they can do some nasty magic stuff. I'll happily assume that when the Mechanists attacked their village, the pagan 'guards' had already been killed but took quite a few Mechanists with them.
Platinumoxicity on 23/6/2009 at 21:52
Quote Posted by R Soul
I don't like the idea of pagans as peace loving hippies. I prefer the idea that they're generally peaceful, but if they're threatened they can do some nasty magic stuff. I'll happily assume that when the Mechanists attacked their village, the pagan 'guards' had already been killed but took quite a few Mechanists with them.
I would rather want them to be somewhat "powerless" outside their forests, but they could be stealthy spies that sabotage the Hammerites, move in the darkness and stay out of the streets. They could have many temporary shelters in secluded areas, parks and rooftops but not a large, organised base like the Hammerites have. They wouldn't be deadly and ferocious warriors, but masters at evading and escaping, and their areas of operation would overlap the Hammerites' without them even noticing. :P
I prefer them as sort of rebels who secretly throw wrenches in the gears.
Edit: More like "branches in their gears" :cheeky:
Beleg Cúthalion on 23/6/2009 at 22:19
I'd rather see them as a social penomenon instead of emphasizing the old faction thing. Like everything had a faction or guild.
Quote Posted by Maddermadcat
That's the trickster, not the pagans as a group.
Our world tells us that the practise of religion is usually more violent than its theory. Your objection only really counts if the Pagans themselves were less violent than their god. I admit that's not completely out of the discussion considering all the feed-on-him-until-he-feeds-on-you tenets, but in general I think all of that can be counted as "Pagan" violence.
My contribution to the original thread is hidden in the first sentence. :p
