TheGrimSmile on 9/5/2011 at 02:38
So playing Framed through again (even though I hate it) I'm really curious about the story behind this mission.
First, is it ever discovered if there really was anything suspicious going on with Warden Affairs? Are we supposed to suspect Mosley in taking evidence from the vault?
Second, I almost suspect Hagen of being some kind of really careful spy who writes even his journal entries to fool any curious gents. Without that reasoning, it seems really, very odd that he would be so attached to Truart's ideas and recommend following him without question. Then again, maybe some people are just like that.
After the mission, does anything ever really come of the Warden Affairs issue (or, for that matter, the distrusting factions within the police force) or was that drama not important to the plot?
Another thing, why wouldn't Truart suspect Mosley over Hagen when Mosley is already faltering in her duty and Hagen follows Truart like a dog? Not to mention Mosley was given the key to the vault and record room. I doubt Hagen is known to carry around lockpicks.
Just some things I was wondering about my least favorite mission.
On a related note, is it ever explained how the heck Mosley's keyring ended up at the sheriff's murder scene? Was it a framing job or was the assassin really that sloppy?
jtr7 on 9/5/2011 at 07:39
The stealing from the vault and the Warden Affairs Division issues are vaguely touched upon, and it's quite easy to make up one's own fiction from the ambiguous-yet-tantalizing texts.
The one piece of fiction that matters most in creating a theory is that many of the City Watch are former criminals, former Downwinder employees, and that Warden Affairs (Ramirez, Raputo, Webster, et al) officers have the bright idea to pay criminals to turn in criminals (Sammy is one, taking money to betray Garrett), and then rearrest the first criminals and get the money back--if they can--and it's caused tension between Blackrat and Weythran (who have correspondence in Shipping... and Receiving and again in Trace the Courier), and it may be a part of the double-crossing of Cedar by Jabril.
Although Mosley may be stealing from the evidence vault, we are left to wonder what's being stolen, since there's no indication any of it is confiscated Pagan property, and the Pagans could fund the conspiracy alone, if they wanted.
Unfortunately, Hagen, like every other journal writer, writes his true thoughts, and it's confirmed that Hagen was Truart's biggest fan.
All we get is that the City Watch is corrupt, populated by "former" criminals, the Baron doesn't know how Truart is basically rogue and working outside the Baron's system, the Divisions are up to something (protecting secret meetings at the Alchemist's shop from snoops), and they squander the Watch's funds on schemes pitting criminals against each other, and Truart is squashing prostitution while participating in secret, has dossier's for threatening women to put pressure on their husbands for lucrative favors, is practically a sexual addict, meeting with one lady of the night after another, shuts down gambling but has gambling in his home, and a lot of citizens are not happy with Truart's New Order. And this is before we discover what he's doing with the wretched folks he picks up off the streets, and that Karras is paying him tens of thousands and hooking him up with Mechanist inventions for those street people. So of course, Garrett has a hand in undoing the corruption.
I also struggle with the lack of convincing evidence and motive against Hagen and pro-Mosley. We were not given the piece of info that would make sense of it. With Truart around for a few more missions after Framed, he would've been been involved in whatever happened to Hagen, and with any inquiry involving Mosley on the matter. Mosley obviously provided the maps for the Pagan courier to deliver to Garrett's door, and maybe the bag of money, too, possibly from the vault.
The assassin was either sloppy or the Pagans intended to get her in trouble once Truart was finally killed off, which seems more spiteful than a preventive measure, especially since Mosley would give her conspirators away if she knew they tried to frame her as well as Hagen.
theBlackman on 9/5/2011 at 22:41
Another reason I prefer 'reading' to movies. The speculations above are in line with that. Some information is provided and the reader needs to fill the data in from his/her imagination.
The scraps provided in game are just enough to foster questions such as the first post which, of course, result in comments and speculation such as those posted by JT.
THIEF has many such incidents that give the game a little more 'life' than the run of the mill games.
Who did what and why; causal incidents; reasons for actions (Ramirez' assassins) and so on add spice to the game, but require the player to fill in the blanks from their own knowledge or imagination.
jtr7 on 10/5/2011 at 02:47
Yeah, like with the Hand Mages and The Eye, some of the flavor texts/convos have a lot of flavor to savor.
TheGrimSmile on 18/5/2011 at 02:25
Thank you as always for the info, jtr.
What I wonder now is who took over after Truart? I feel like it was maybe mentioned somewhere that it was Mosely, but I can't trust myself on that one. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bitter battle for the position of sheriff.
I'm surprised Mosely actually gets through this thing without being caught. I mean, she calls her ally a "co-conspirator"
It's really lucky that Garrett's the first one investigating her. The bluecoats could have enough evidence to convict her in a heartbeat.
Which makes me wonder, did anybody bother looking at the crime scene at all? Didn't notice a keyring just... laying there?
Indeed, Blackman! First City Bank and Trust has become one of my favorite missions due in no small part to the interesting backstory concerning the master banker.
jtr7 on 18/5/2011 at 05:04
Some of the guards thought Mosley was a good choice, but we never heard anything related to the previous City Watches in TDS, and there's no fiction regarding what actually happened to Hagen, Mosley, or any Sheriff elections, etc.
SunBeam on 31/5/2011 at 10:29
A bit off-topic.. I don't think the developers had a huge intriguing story in mind while working on Thief 2. Perhaps not even the slightest interest to complicate things as most fans do today :) Am guessing they rushed to tie things together (they were nearly going out of business and had to release it) just to get the product done. And all these replies I see above: "player has to fill in the blanks, using his imagination" are basically what we call 'hitting 2 birds with 1 stone'. What's left for the player to imagine is what's not finalized in the game's story, since there wasn't enough time to PROPERLY bind/conclude everything :) First time I played Thief 2 I often had that feeling that story is abruptly changing from one mission to another or from 3 to 3 missions, that at some point I was left with only the big picture in mind, not the details.
As for "Framed", I did recall an old interview back in 2000, before game's release, when the producer at that time said the sequel will feature a sneak into a bank safe, a detective story, etc. At some point, I guess, they went overboard with the "new additions" that story fell out of hand. And from what I read over the years, fans (these forums in particular) always tended to bind bits and pieces together (sometimes FORCING them) to get a clean story with no loop-holes or interpretations :)
Just my 2 cents..
TheGrimSmile on 1/6/2011 at 04:47
Of course that's true, but I often try to forget that fact. It's impossible to know how much story the devs actually meant to put in the game via readables and other things, but it's fun to put the pieces together, anyway.
It brings up an interesting question; can a game have more story in it than was ever planned, essentially taking on a life of its own? Is this the mark of a good game or the mark of imaginative fans?
theBlackman on 1/6/2011 at 07:36
Quote Posted by TheGrimSmile
It brings up an interesting question; can a game have more story in it than was ever planned, essentially taking on a life of its own? Is this the mark of a good game or the mark of imaginative fans?
I would say both. If the 'game' has enough hints to back story in it it frees the player to fill in the blanks and, like a good story or joke, the inferred unspoken activities add to both.
Of course, this is applicable only to games like thief. Doom and other straight forward shooters don't allow this type of speculation. Go in here, Kill everybody, get the special equipment and kill THE BOSS.
Not much for the player to think about.
In Thief, we have a protagonist (anti-hero he may be) who has a shadowy history, has elected to leave a group that he thinks is too controlling, is faced with an unwanted fate tied into a dire prophecy which is itself vague.
A situation that enhances the game, just like a good book that gives you descriptions of scenes and characters, but leaves the full picture to the reader to fill out.
TheGrimSmile on 19/6/2011 at 13:32
Alright, so now I have a few questions on Life of the Party and Precious Cargo.
In Life of the Party, is Karras gone because he has made an emergency trip to the KD site? I suppose we are to assume so...
Also, is there any information on the little golden Child that appears after reading the New Scripture? That thing freaks me out every time I play the level...
In Precious Cargo, I'm confused a bit. In Life of the Party, Karras says that he must keep the New Scripture secret for a little bit, but in Precious Cargo, a note has been posted to retrieve the New Scripture from Karras' flooded chambers. If he was keeping it secret, how did they know what it was?
