scumble on 22/2/2013 at 08:16
I think I can understand the guilt element fett, but your family is clearly remarkable, and you must be giving all you can given your health, and I am sure you know that they know that.
Hopefully that makes sense. From a support network perspective PA sounds like a good move, though I only have a vague idea what it's like personally. I'm guessing parts of it are similar to Vermont, considering the Appalachians run right through it. I hope the conservative element isn't as prominent as dethtoll suggests...
fett on 22/2/2013 at 14:15
It's pretty conservative but nothing compared to the South. Fortunately, we are and have been involved with a politically liberal activist group since we lived there, as well as having many friends in the Harrisburg/Lebanon Free Thinkers Society. Out of about 50 families in our homeschool group, only about 2 are Evangelical, about 10 are marginal/liberal Catholic, and the rest are non-religious or atheist. So in a sense, our immediate circles are not conservative by far.
I recall an incident where I was standing at the Free Thinkers booth (on the outside) talking to the vendor at a small town festival, when an older guy came up and started waving his arms around and shouting that we didn't love anyone and we were all uncivilized faggots, etc. I asked how he knew all this (with a grin) and he replied, dead serious, "Because I'm an elder at THAT church right THERE," (pointing to the Gospel Tabernacle of Holy Virgin Miracles for the Apostle of the Spirit with Signs and Fire of the Lord's Congregation of Saints or some ridiculous bullshit). My encounters with conservatives seemed to run along those lines, so that even the majority of the conservatives treat the crazies like they need to chill the fuck out. I'm sure it's worse than that, but I haven't had near the problems I've had in the South, i.e. conspiratorial whispers in my ear about niggers, spics, chinks, etc. while standing in retail lines, and certainly no one shooting guns on their front lawn every morning as a matter of course.
Arkansas is fucked up, ya'll. You have no idea.
scumble on 22/2/2013 at 14:32
Some parts of the US sound like bizarre hybrids of modernity and the early 19th century. I'm sure the most superstitious speaking-in-tounges folks have their smartphones with their Bible apps. Or is that Bible 2.0?
demagogue on 23/2/2013 at 05:22
It does get mixed up. I read an article noting the demographics & statistics of people by their political & religious beliefs. The most religious & conservative rural families also have the largest chance of children out of wedlock, adultery, substance abuse, etc, but apparently don't let the cognitive dissonance get in the way of them being hyper-intolerant of crossing the "moral line" (they do the "bad" stuff more, just express more guilt & penitence about it).
And then left-leaning liberal families tend to actually live like Ozzie & Harriet (i.e., 1950s straight-laced tv family, very stable & "traditional" living); they live more traditionally even as they're much more tolerant of nontraditional lifestyles. This is roughly my experience too.
Some of that may be class based... People with more education can get better jobs so can afford to be more stable, and when you're finances aren't stable, your life can be unstable too, which is correlated to all sorts of bad habits to release the pressure. But I tend to think there are cultural aspects to it too. But even aside from the causes, it's the gulf between actual lifestyle & (in)tolerance of opinion that's striking from that study.
scumble on 23/2/2013 at 10:55
Cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy are a given with fundamentalists. Probably the term doublethink is more appropriate.
But if you think that the main premise of Christianity is that you're already doomed but you just have to believe Jesus is your saviour to be saved, there is no inherent motivation to live in a way that resembles virtue.
On the other hand it can just be ignorance, intellectual laziness or basic stupidity. I suppose the southern states have been relatively poor in general since the civil war, apart from Texas perhaps, so holding on to religion might be more attractive...
tyronedankert on 25/2/2013 at 06:22
Quit whinning about it and do something about it if you really want change. life is what you make it. So go and make your own.
demagogue on 25/2/2013 at 06:34
The fuck? Is that some kind of bot spam?
june gloom on 25/2/2013 at 07:30
lol
it's too specific to be spam and too nasty to be a bot
Thirith on 25/2/2013 at 08:40
Quote Posted by scumble
But if you think that the main premise of Christianity is that you're already doomed but you just have to believe Jesus is your saviour to be saved, there is no inherent motivation to live in a way that resembles virtue.
It's the old faith vs works issue. Personally, I've always found a faith that isn't backed up by works (i.e. the actual, hard work of loving people and practicing that love) ridiculous, hypocritical and intellectually and morally bankrupt. If there is a god that is swayed by you wearing the right kind of t-shirt ("Jesus saves!!!!!1!1") regardless of your actions (which speak more of hate than love), he doesn't deserve worship, and if there is a god worth worshipping, he must look at all of those 'believers' thinking, "The fuck, guys?!" IMO.
It's mostly the fault of that Paul guy, though. When people finally invent the time machine, point 2 on their to-do list (right after "1. Kill Hitler") ought to be giving Paul a good kick in the balls. Then again, perhaps that's what made him such a dick - time travellers arriving out of nowhere and kicking him in the nuts - in which case time travellers should go back in time to prevent time travellers from kicking him in the testicles, at which point we've got ourselves a conundrum.
scumble on 25/2/2013 at 09:17
It makes more sense to blame Constantine and the council of Nicea, although Paul must have been a large influence on early catholic dogma.
There is all the tedious debating over original sin, because there is no reason to believe in Jesus if being an all-round good egg isn't good enough.
However I really would rather not start another debate over Christian theology in here again. I'll have to split the damn thread as I don't want it cluttering up fett's podium.
