jtr7 on 20/7/2011 at 05:05
Rope arrows only require something above or below to stick in and space to hang down, whereas gloves require the (usually immovable and fixed) entire climbing surface a rope arrow makes portable. Ropes are vastly superior, givng the player 25 meters of portable climbing surface, allow full 360-degree views while in use much of the time, and can be used to create more horizontal movement, allow the player to change the gamespace, while gloves usually leave little more than 190-degrees of view most of the time, and do not ever change the gamespace. Ropes, more often than not, allow more planning ahead, more exploration, more observation of territory and AIs, and require only a tiny exposed spot of soft material as opposed to a full length of environmental wall, and are closer to Thief's fundamentals of the player changing the environment to pass through the gamespace in varied ways.
Make the climbing gloves change the gamespace, allow the player camera to look around in full range like a real person, and allow the player to climb without the gloves like a child in the forest or on a playground can, and they will be more exciting. Also, eliminate the term "gloves" and call it climbing gear or something, especially if the knees and elbows are always stuck to the surface, naturalistic movement is greatly hindered (especially the ability to look around in 1st-Person), and if people say they want the gloves only because the magic rope arrows aren't realistic--make them not just gloves and fully practical, so we don't have to hear how magic gloves are more realistic.
SubJeff on 20/7/2011 at 10:03
Gah! I meant to put both and ended up choosing gloves only!
There is no reason why both wouldn't work well. Just don't have the gloves work in the way they do in TDS.
Esme on 20/7/2011 at 15:05
oh and ladders
in real life I can with a bit of work turn round while remaining on the ladder, I can even climb round the ladder to the other side, I can even jump off to a platform or other ladder while halfway up
in T1/TG/T2 I can do the same
in TDS I'm stuck to the ladder I can look to the sides, I can't climb round it, I cant turn round, I can jump off with difficulty but forget trying to jump to a platform or other ladder as this means jumping off turning in mid air then running like hell while I'm in mid air in the direction I want to go which somehow propels me in the right direction if I'm lucky
I would like the old style ladders back please
I don't want a sudden involuntary out of body experience while I climb as in Deus Ex:HR either, the only time I want to stare at the back of my own head is with an arrangement of mirrors, please leave my viewpoint attached to my eyes
zachary1975 on 21/7/2011 at 02:39
this thread/poll is not about ladders it's about building scaling gear.
jtr7 on 21/7/2011 at 02:54
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Gah! I meant to put both and ended up choosing gloves only!
There is no reason why both wouldn't work well. Just don't have the gloves work in the way they do in TDS.
Examples, please!:D
How would you have the climbing gloves create climbable surfaces in empty space, or allow increased horizontal options without borrowing from Spider-Man, for instance?
And since more equipment and uses means more animations, objects, physics, and dynamics, dev time, playtesting and debugging, I'd rather all the time went into the ropes and improving existing equipment usage, and more naturalistic climbing ability and more things to climb with (vines, trellises, cables, chains, pipes, trees, molding, framing, railing, fences, like an average human already can) than needlessly adding more stuff and leaving the usual stuff restricted to justify the time and money.
Chade on 21/7/2011 at 03:35
Quote Posted by jtr7
How would you have the climbing gloves create climbable surfaces in empty space
You wouldn't, any more then you'd use rope arrows to create free form movement around a wall.
Although the ability to jump backwards off a wall would help to a certain degree.
Rope arrows could be more powerful too. Horizontal movement with T1/2 rope arrows is limited to a small discrete set of horizontal positions, which have to be set up in advance. You could do more sideways movement with better physics.
At the end of the day, though, we don't want to go around arguing that the most powerful tool is necessarily the best. The player should have a variety of tools to get around the level in unauthorized ways ... but while discovering unexpected routes is part of that, the meat of the game should always be outsmarting guards.
(That's why I'd prefer an "either" option to "both".)
Bakerman on 21/7/2011 at 05:36
Both rope arrows and climbing gloves require the level to be correctly designed for their use (not necessarily intentionally... but correctly nevertheless).
I wouldn't mind if, as jtr says, we got better natural climbing abilities that we could use wherever we liked (within reason), even at the cost of both these tools. If I had to choose one, it would probably be the rope arrows.
Beleg Cúthalion on 21/7/2011 at 06:42
Grappling hook!
SubJeff on 21/7/2011 at 10:46
Quote Posted by jtr7
Examples, please!:D
How would you have the climbing gloves create climbable surfaces in empty space, or allow increased horizontal options without borrowing from Spider-Man, for instance?
There is no doubt that the climbing gloves would give Spiderman vibe, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be fun and useful. I'm thinking more of something like this:
Inline Image:
http://www.tbotech.com/images/ninja-hand-claws.jpgWould allow climbing of suitable surfaces, but would also need to be put on and taken off, on hands and feet, before climbing so you can't just run away from a guard and up a wall.
As to creating climbable surfaces in empty space - are you even reading what you are writing? Your attempts at strawmanning have failed, again.
