jtr7 on 22/7/2011 at 08:37
Freedom without meaning can be just as bad as limited usefulness, indeed. I've only ever enjoyed the climbing gloves once, but for how slow I was and how I couldn't enter a window from below. The one other time I thought I was about to have some fun I was foiled by a strip of molding, and wondered why there was an open window two floors up from the ground I couldn't get into, and to make it worse, it was all wood and I had no rope arrow.
Anyway, since it's maybe not understood how I've chosen my approach to this thread, after 6 years I have not read nor seen demonstrated how the gloves-specific climbing can be enhanced to make them truly worthwhile and respectable in a Thief game, but I've read a lot of subjective "I like 'em" and "I thought they were fun" and "they could easily be made better" vagary, as well as leaps into territory milked to death in mainstream games. The biggest improvements suggested for the gloves are almost always the improvements that could actually just improve gloveless mantling or types that the ropes already provide. Changes suggested are too often pushing the player to be a Ninja-Spider rather than better at climbing in ways a real person can take for granted. Nothing is glove-specific and Thief-specific, and the big prize goes to anyone who can suggest uses for the gloves that approach equal value to the rope arrow staying glove-specific AND Thief-specific--meaning, the world and fiction shouldn't be adjusted, built to give the gloves a context, the fiction shouldn't have to explain continuity changes, the ropes shouldn't lose their range of uses to accommodate or justify the gloves, and no glove uses should overlap what improved mantling would cover better.
Grappling hooks are inferior, and require physics-fudging and non-realism, and to get even close to a rope arrow's worth, must act magically, which puts a damper on the whole realism/anti-magic excuse for having grappling hooks. They must not clang and bounce off realistically, must not get snagged, and must attach to textures or else we will be hand-held with grapple-point objects placed strategically. If the player is attached to the rope, the world must be built with better systems for all the goofy collision and clipping that will come with it, or it will be a shame. The player must be able to hook more than one, and attach them farther than throwing distance away, or it loses ground to the rope arrows. The player must be able to detach and leave the hook and rope where it is for later use. The player must be able to attach the hook below him/herself and drop the cord down. The player must be able to unhook the hook in some way, while hanging from the cord, or cut the cord, especially if we want AIs to notice the cord. Of course, there are exceptions to some of the "musts" and there are cop-out ways around them, and there are the tantalizing concepts I'd love to hear.
dexterward on 22/7/2011 at 10:52
Grappling hooks? Back to Quake 2 CTF, where you belong. Similarly, climbing gloves fit more into some Tenchu-esque ninja game. Climbing would be best handled on realistic level - leave mantling in and add some (reasonably difficult) jump-and-grab mechanic perhaps.
In addition to rope arrows maybe there could be a rope itself? Ok I`m daydreaming now-this would probably demand some Trespasser-like fiddling...could be fun though.
SubJeff on 22/7/2011 at 10:52
tl;dr
Seriously now. You have a lot of good, sensible, points jtr - why do you bury them in walls of overly verbose text?
Pyrian on 22/7/2011 at 22:41
I like grappling hooks for the simple reason that they were used as the go-to portable tool of choice for the function (Garrett's would probably be padded, of course).
Portraying a proper grappling hook coming into position is primarily a physics problem. For any previous thief title, I could see that being a serious issue. Now? Well, I haven't done it myself, but I don't think it is such a big deal with modern physics engines. The rope itself is significantly more difficult to model.
Quote:
They must not clang and bounce off realistically...
I've never been a big fan of things that should make noise being weirdly quiet. Aim would of course be an issue.
Quote:
...must not get snagged...
Isn't getting snagged how it functions? ;) More seriously, I think this could be a real issue, or rather the hook getting stuck somewhere you don't want it could be a real issue without an entirely realistic solution. In most cases you could force the player to climb up and retrieve it, but they won't always be able to get down. I think the best solution is to allow the player to press a key to retrieve the rope & hook by giving it a good swing that makes the hook fall - something that can be very difficult to get to work in real life if it's stuck, or even just sufficiently high and/or heavy.
Quote:
If the player is attached to the rope, the world must be built with better systems for all the goofy collision and clipping that will come with it, or it will be a shame.
I think that's true of rope arrows, too. IIRC, this sort of thing was cited in T:
DS as one of the reasons they moved away from rope arrows. They tend to be basically "ladder arrows". I recall there being serious clipping issues with rope arrows in Dark Messiah.
Quote:
The player must be able to hook more than one, and attach them farther than throwing distance away, or it loses ground to the rope arrows.
Is this that big a deal? The idea is to add some vertical mobility, not necessarily to make it hugely convenient. I don't think making Dark Messiah style rope jungle jims adds that much to gameplay. The "magic" rope arrows had limitations of their own, like you couldn't swing on them from your firing position, since they drop vertically.
Quote:
The player must be able to detach and leave the hook and rope where it is for later use.
I think this should be in, although I'm not convinced it's entirely necessary. Anyway, rope arrows were like that.
Quote:
The player must be able to attach the hook below him/herself and drop the cord down.
I really like this idea, although I wouldn't classify it as necessary. I don't recall rope arrows ever having that feature; instead you'd have a rafter or something nearby.
Quote:
The player must be able to unhook the hook in some way, while hanging from the cord, or cut the cord, especially if we want AIs to notice the cord.
I don't think cutting or freeing the grapple while ON it are really that necessary. (Still, if there's some "trigger" cord to release the grapple to satisfy the snagging problems, it would be simple enough to have a number of these possibilities. I'd rather have the simpler and more realistic version, though, and not allow you such actions.)
I'm especially leery about cutting the rope. If the fiction is, he's got a single rope and grapple (which is IMO reasonable), he probably shouldn't
want to cut the rope, and what's more, allowing the rope to be destroyed (easy enough with an edged weapon) makes level designers have to consider the possibility that you might lose that capability. I don't know, in Thief that's not altogether problematic, I'm just leery about it. Probably better to allow the rope to be cut and even re-threaded, but I'm not sure it would be worth programming. I think it would be simpler to just leave it not cuttable without that being too noticeable (games tend to be chock full of weirdly indestructible objects), although I'll happily concede it would be more fun if it was vulnerable. How cool would it be to have a guard hear the grappling hook land, come running along the parapet, and cut the rope while you're climbing it? :cool:
...I don't think rope arrows could ever be cut? Not that I've really checked.
Quote:
Of course, there are exceptions to some of the "musts" and there are cop-out ways around them, and there are the tantalizing concepts I'd love to hear
Hope this helped clarify the notion. :cool:
Too Much Coffee on 24/7/2011 at 00:44
I'm a rope arrow nut. To me they were one of the key features in TDP and TMA which made those games so special. The maps were made to be large, expansive, and vertical for a reason, so we can explore, and using rope arrows as a key part of exploring. And also a good way to find hidden areas and secrets.
Those silly climbing gloves from TDS were a perversion; a failed consolation by a game not capable of doing rope arrows. And the maps from those games really were not detailed and large enough where rope arrows would not have made the game much better anyway. Weren't really too many hidden areas or secrets to be found.
When I play fan missions, I respect the creators when they take the time to carefully place rope arrow opportunities in their maps. Not too obvious, but enough of them to make searching for alternative routes feel rewarding. And then I feel bummed when I play missions that have no rope arrows.
Dii on 24/7/2011 at 01:33
Quote Posted by Too Much Coffee
I'm a rope arrow nut. To me they were one of the key features in TDP and TMA which made those games so special. The maps were made to be large, expansive, and vertical for a reason, so we can explore, and using rope arrows as a key part of exploring. And also a good way to find hidden areas and secrets.
Those silly climbing gloves from TDS were a perversion; a failed consolation by a game not capable of doing rope arrows. And the maps from those games really were not detailed and large enough where rope arrows would not have made the game much better anyway. Weren't really too many hidden areas or secrets to be found.
When I play fan missions, I respect the creators when they take the time to carefully place rope arrow opportunities in their maps. Not too obvious, but enough of them to make searching for alternative routes feel rewarding. And then I feel bummed when I play missions that have no rope arrows.
I completely agree with the above.
Rope arrows definatley definatley need a return.
Chade on 24/7/2011 at 12:33
Quote Posted by Xorak
Strangely, to me, climbing gloves are both limiting and too free. It's too easy for the player to climb on every single wall in the level, which forces the FM designer to put in arbitrary borders everywhere to stop the player from climbing where they aren't supposed to be.
Either the climbing gloves give you too many options, or not enough. You can't have both. What you're observing here is that ultimately, the options which the player has at their disposal are determined by the level design. The rope arrow vs climbing glove question does NOT determine what options the player has to move around the level. All it tells us is what sort of level the designers have to build to give the player those options.
Of course, that's not a trivial thing ... not being able to climb past the smallest bump in the wall, not being able to move around corners ... can you imagine the sort of levels that they'd need to design in T3 to give the player more freedom with the climbing gloves? Boring flat walls, ledges to get the player around every corner, etc ...
Quote Posted by jtr7
big prize goes to anyone who can suggest uses for the gloves that approach equal value to the rope arrow staying glove-specific AND Thief-specific--meaning
I was going to make another vignette before replying, but I'm tired and can't be bothered ... to get the basic idea across, it was going to involve the player entering a new room via a wall, and reacting to the situation they encountered there on the fly (i.e., moving to the appropriate areas despite not being able to get down and shoot rope arrows in the appropriate places).
Beleg Cúthalion on 25/7/2011 at 09:34
Quote Posted by jtr7
Nothing is glove-specific and Thief-specific, and the big prize goes to anyone who can suggest uses for the gloves that approach equal value to the rope arrow staying glove-specific AND Thief-specific
This blurries IMHO the fact that what a rope arrow does is merely rendered "rope-arrow-specific" by the use of it in computer games for at least thirteen years. Otherwise it's the idea of attaching a heavy rope to a thin arrow to magically create a climbing possibility which is not arrow-specific at all except for the shooting part. It's just a fantasy innovation, even more than the idea of wearing gloves to give you better stamina when climbing stone walls with sharp edges.
Don't get me wrong, I think the gloves as a tool are ridiculous (by the way, there once was an urban climber on TV who said that he couldn't find any benefit in those ninja hooks... but I don't know how Japanese houses were built in older times). I'm all for a dynamic climbing system with many natural options, but comparing rope arrows and climbing gloves should at some point arrive at the conclusion that both are gameplay inventions far from reality and thus need to establish their own believability in the game... to make them both "specific". Otherwise you're applying double standards.
Finally, to come back to the point where I was weary of the discussion before it even began: Grappling hooks also need their own believability set up in the game, but I don't see where they are inferior to rope arrows. IMHO there's not much difference between an arrow which quietly impacts in wonderously present wooden ceilings, carries a man's weight and can still be plucked out in a second... and a grappling hook which twists quietly around wonderously present roof framework beams and can be hooked off with a swing of the player's right mouse button...in a second.
zachary1975 on 31/7/2011 at 02:41
Quote Posted by jtr7
and the big prize goes to anyone who can suggest uses for the gloves that approach equal value to the rope arrow staying glove-specific AND Thief-specific,
* the gloves could be usable on all walls no matter what they are made of.
* garret could be able to bypass bricks or whatever else may be sticking out of the wall as long as they are no further out than say the distance from garret's back to the wall.
would that be very close to equivalent value to the rope arrow staying glove-specific and thief-specific?:erg:
