Acorn on 21/6/2009 at 11:49

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Storyline is all in this game.

In T3 the Hammers, Guards and Pagans were just enemies to be thrown in Garrett's path, and we didn't get to know any of the guards, hammers or pagans except Benny and his friend. Or the population in general. They were all one dimensional.

If you look back at the first two games, they had interesting characters and groups we were learning something about as we progressed, as well as being our enemies.

There can still be more stories told about characters, more to learn about the Builder and the Pagan beliefs and some to recap as we progress through the new game in all these groups and new stuff added about their group lore/religions. And I really HOPE in thief 4 they don't just set the groups up as inflatable Bozos for us to smack again.

What characters really stand out?

From memory:

Thief 1: Constantine and Victoria. The eye. I got some opinion of Lord Bafford though he wasn't there.. funny guards, citizens with dialogue and personalities such as and Cutty.

Thief 2: Basso Jenivere, selfish Lady Rumford. Karras, Victoria, Bennie and his comedy foil friend start to stand out more. We got to know the characters of Sheriff Truart and followed Lieutenant Mosley and learned about her involvement. We even know a bit about Brother Cavador.
Enough to write fan fiction about all the characters.
Funny guards, some funny citizens with dialogue and personalities.

Thief 3: Keeper Orland, Keeper Artemis, The Inspector(involved with the cradle), the little girl ghost, Gamall "the hag"/fake child, Caduca, The feuding Lord brothers in the castle mission, the thief girl at the end.

So the pagans, guards and Hammerites were one dimensional for not having a significant character or two here.
* What are the Hammers up to which involves them in the situation?
Nothing.
* What are the pagans up to which involves them in the situation? Nothing.
*What are the Nobles up to which involves them in the situation? Nothing.
These groups are there only to steal items from and have enemies to smack. In the next game there needs to be some intrigue between the groups again and all their Leading figures need to stand out more and be involved. It can't have all of the story with only one group having significant characters, because this is a city of several inter-related groups.

* The guards generally were wooden strangers too. Nothing going on in their world, except the inspector.
Who is the commander of the city watch now and what is the watch up to? Nothing in T3. The goings on in the city have to be important.

* The citizens though now lootable, it was less interesting to steal from them since I didn't know who any of them were except for the guys planning to loot the other part of town pretending to be Garrett. Dialogue was repeated too much by different people.
Could have had a mission involving common people so I'd feel more for the proletariate. love, hate, something.

* The fences repeated too much, I didn't know them. Could have story material here about one being a cheat, and then he tries to cheat me. Or a guard coming in the shop behind me and I have to beat it this leading to a mission, or some kind of set up outside as I leave.

Basically, all the aspects of the city should be brought back into play. Maybe have something involving the Barron. Hes the lead figure in the city whenever he happens to get back from the war...
Also Automatons need to be kept to a minimum and be more individual. There should be at least two individual things about 80% of them. Either a readable somewhere -page or diary, or a bit of dialogue only they say or someone else says in reference to them, or a bit of difference in the outfit even slight.
The rest should be silently going about their business so they don't say what someone else says all the time.

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Ok, a basic story outline:

1) Garrett goes on an easy mission so you can get used to the controls. No tutorial stopping the action with screens! the game needs to bring back the guy asking you to do things and explaining things verbally.
This time you're at the fair of an evening so you get to practice archery for a prize which you are to take to your next contact, sword fighting with practice swords contest to win your sword, pick pocket the fair goers to a certain amount, then you reach the next person who tells you where to go. Then you will have to climb and walk run and jump and rope arrow your way from one difficult position to another to get to the final meet up point without the Downwinder Guild members seeing you. They won't unless you touch the ground. Then last the final contact gives you the mission: Follow someone in another area with no downwinders (without the person noticing you) who has the item you're supposed to steal and black jack him. Hide the body before a wandering guard gets close (with no directions where to put it :P ) bring the item back a different way with lots of shadows without the downwinders spotting you and leave the fair grounds.

2) Rob Lord Bafford or Gervasious. Just for old times sake. You learn something about the new organization among the nobles. The Baron has returned and is re-asserting his power blah blah blah. After you make off with the loot you are contacted by someone that pulls you into the new intrigue of t4.

3) Mission for contact. On this mission you over hear things and learn something. Get the item you are sent after (a diary or notebook maybe) but you learn giving it to the person will create a power struggle maybe a war in the city, you don't know if you want to hand it over so you hold onto it. Hide it somewhere.

4) Meet the contact and say you couldn't find it. They yell and then grudgingly decide to accept your lie. For now. But noone else knows you claim not to have found the item, or believes you didn't. Subsequently there are lots of people after garrett and The Baron himself has instated a bounty for your capture. Anyone will try and chase G down in the city. Garrett must go to Basso's house and ask for help.

5) You go to your good buddy's house and he turns you in to the watch to save Jenivere. [cutscene: Watch dungeon The Watch command wants the mysterious item and garrett gets mildly tortured while the new commander demands he tell them where it is. Garrett doesn't talk. Tortur-er goes on lunch break and officers leave quickly when they hear the Baron has arrived. Baron enters (he is cruel and calculating) questions G himself. Garrett says he never found the item but Baron doesn't believe.. eyes him and then leaves end cutscene.] In game G has low hit points must escape before the torturer comes back to do something worse. I forget if Mosely is still alive. If she is maybe she helps Garret by leaving him something (later it is shown that the Baron ordered her to do it). Or maybe Benny bumbles and drops something Garrett can use.

6)[cutscene: refreshed after a few days hiding in the sewers :P Garrett goes to hiding place and find out item is gone. A pagan burrick herder used the place as a den for his burricks and must have found the item. Clue burrick dung and a leaf is carelessly left on the ground/floor.]

7) leave city for pagan village. short cutscene fills you in on pagans and their new leadership arrangement. Ask around and listen in on conversations. Gaffle some loot. Get directed to somebody's shack deep in woods. find shack. They barely know anything but you get redirected to a grove somewhere.

8) At grove cutscene of pagan ritual. Pagan leader won't give you the item because it gives the owner too much social power and they want it so that they can defeat the hammers. You try to take it and come up against wood beasts/spirits.

9) Back at the city the hammers surround you lead by their current Father so an so. They take the item and you seemingly fall to your death when chased after you try to escape.

10) You failed, and they begin to assert their will [cutscene of them establishing a theocracy]. The Baron is imprisoned. Garrett does a mission to talk to him in his cell and he tells the thief to undo the problem and promises him great wealth and an end to the bounty on his head.

11) Next day you run a minor mission trying to survive and eat and replace equipment. Just being a thief. An acolyte runs through the streets yelling their leader has been assassinated. You go to the church and see a familiar clue. Then go to your original contact's apartment out of curiosity and find out who they really are. Thieves guild. you find out they are the killers. You must adventure the down winders new digs and get the item back. They have handed it off already to one of the Nobles. Its Bafford! He pays handsomely and leaves with the item surrounded by guards. Steal the payment.

12) The Pagans send warriors and ape beasts to scout for you and the item. They chase you through the streets and sewers to Bafford's new mannor. You dive into the moat to escape them. Outside guards are distracted and shoot at them through fence.

14) navigate the manor now with extra guards in it and recover the item. Where might he have put it..? Throne Room. recover item.

15) You go to the Baron and break him out of prison. Lead him out in disguise. Later cutscene: Handing over the item to him he promises to keep his word and grant you the things he offered.. then he welches as you leave because he doesn't want you alive knowing the secrets in the book Garrett has to run for it again.

Er, thats just an idea, but I think the Nobles are still under represented in the city lore. They should figure strongly in T4. There weren't only three factions, the nobles are the fourth faction. And technically the thieves guild is a fifth. Then also you might as well list the Wizards and an Assassins guild. there are many main storylines that can come from thief.

pwyll on 23/6/2009 at 02:24

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Here is something interesting to me. In TDP the main evil character was connected to the Pagans, in TMA - Hammerites, in TDS - Keepers. So in Thief 4 what would be the faction the main evil comes from? Should it be a common human, maybe someone from the City Watch or some Undead?

Stath MIA on 23/6/2009 at 04:27

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@pwyll- I second the idea of using the baron as a primary villain. He heads up the unspoken fourth faction, the City itself. The City is a faction not of nature nor of technology nor magic, as the Pagans, Hammers, and Keepers were, but one of birthright and innate power. I find the idea of Garrett going up against the those who hold the title of authority over the entire City to be quite intriguing.

belboz on 25/6/2009 at 17:18

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Garrett wakes up and finds out that what happened in thief 3 was all a dream/nightmare.:ebil: