Muzman on 26/6/2012 at 15:30
What is this 'all else being equal' you speak of? They've both had their punching power tested beforehand perhaps?
It causes about as much injustice as the idea larger males shouldn't hit a child. Yeah, I know where it comes from. It's still little more than a general rule of thumb (or hand, I suppose).
Jason Moyer on 26/6/2012 at 15:53
Quote Posted by dethtoll
MEN ARE IN POWER, WOMEN AREN'T.Which is weird when you consider that women are the majority.
CCCToad on 26/6/2012 at 16:29
Law of averages. If you a hit a guy, that guy is generally capable of fighting back with a winning chance. While smaller size can be a case for either genders, I've seen some guys who look small but are tough as hell in actual fight. Guys are also more apt to respond in kind to being in hit than women are.
It may be an "injustice", but its one that results from physical and hardwired pscyhological differences between the sexes.
faetal on 26/6/2012 at 17:12
Quote Posted by Papy
You mean like talking about politics has now created a new consensus and a new status quo?
Learn the difference between the words "can" and "does".
Quote:
Talking will never bring any consensus or any status quo about the place of women in society. This is a debate which is going on since societies exists and things keep changing. The image of women in video game is obviously a new subject, but in the end it's the same old debate, which will never end.
This debate has actually done huge amounts for women over the centuries. Don't forget that women didn't used to be able to vote. It was a shift in attitude brought about by a change in social culture which led to something being done about.
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The idea of equal pay for equal work is great in theory, but in practice it's one of the worst argument someone who fights for social equality can make. When a woman will take a one year paid maternity leave, men will see that women have privileges they don't.
When men have to carry a child to term in their wombs and then breastfeed that child through its infancy, they'll have a point.
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When a woman refuse to do overtime because she says she has to take care of her household
Sexism, implying that women don't do overtime and men can't look after households.
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or when she'll demand to leave early because one of her kid is sick
Dad can't do this 50% of the time why? Again, implying that you see this as a woman's role.
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and when because of that the enterprise ask for a men to do the job, men will see that women don't have to do as much as men.
So in summary, women shouldn't have equal pay rights because they are doing house work, looking after sick children and they should be grateful to not have to do as much work as men and therefore get less pay? You don't see how this idea of man= breadwinner, woman = get a nice little part time job and look after the house and kids is a tad sexist? Most parents I know try to split the sick duty 50/50 and the housework too, on account of it being a bit backwards to assume the man has the more important job. Or maybe he does, perhaps because of woman being expected to look after the house and kids, leading to them not getting jobs as important as their husband, leading to them being expected to focus on the home....it's a positive feedback loop and fuelled by an assumption that work = man stuff and keeping house = woman stuff. That is called inequality of opportunity.
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When a woman will ask for the help of a man because she don't have the physical strentght to do a particular task, men will see that women can't do equal work.
This is one aspect where men have an advantage over women, but this is also probably why you don't get quite so many female applicants to be hod carriers etc.. or quite so many men applying to be wet nurses. The majority of jobs involving equal pay disputes tend not to be those which are divided by strength requirements, if you disagree, then please find me that article. A good area of pay inequality analysis is middle management. Salary inequality has come a long way in Europe, but only because people started pointing it out and saying that it was not ok and doing stuff about it.
Shadow on 26/6/2012 at 17:17
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Our society is
systematically designed to keep down anyone who isn't in the majority, in this case women
Prove it.
inb4 he replies that he's not going to because we're obviously idiots and it's been proven already or something
faetal on 26/6/2012 at 17:19
Quote Posted by CCCToad
Law of averages. If you a hit a guy, that guy is generally capable of fighting back with a winning chance. While smaller size can be a case for either genders, I've seen some guys who look small but are tough as hell in actual fight. Guys are also more apt to respond in kind to being in hit than women are.
It may be an "injustice", but its one that results from physical and hardwired pscyhological differences between the sexes.
Testosterone not only allows for more muscle growth, it also creates a more aggressive and violent phenotype. Bear in mind that women secrete testosterone too, just at far lower amounts and with far fewer target tissues. Not sure how this applies to equality of opportunities though. So men and women are not equal in a fight - so what? Doesn't mean anything to debate about equality of opportunities.
faetal on 26/6/2012 at 19:43
Transvaginal ultrasound for women seeking abortion is a pretty fucking abysmal example.
Sg3 on 26/6/2012 at 19:46
Quote Posted by dethtoll
The criminal justice system tends to treat rape victims like criminals.
The system is even harder on male rape victims than it is on female rape victims. Did you know that? Not to make light of the horror that female rape victims go through with during and after the atrocity--but it's even worse for male rape victims, because very few people even take them seriously.
I myself have been, although not the victim of actual rape, the target of sexual harassment at the workplace (male on male, physical). For the same infraction against a female worker, a male worker was fired--but when this infraction was committed against a male worker (me), there was no punitive action taken against the perpetrator. All the company did was put the victim on a priority list for a transfer to another department.
And when we're talking about female-on-male rape, many people (especially women) don't even believe that it's possible. (Which it is.) Oh--and don't get me started on how statutory rape laws always assume that the male was the one to blame. What happens when an underage girl rapes an older man? The victim is punished, that's what! Gah. This is why I resent practicing feminists*--they are responsible for, and often even approve of, so much of the evil which they preach against--only against males instead of females. This disgusts me.
* "Practicing feminists" being defined for this use as "those whom I have observed practicing what they call feminism."
Papy on 26/6/2012 at 19:48
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
You don't have kids do you?
My ex girlfriend had a baby. Yes, I know it's a chore for most people, particularly for most men, but for me it was a joy, even if the baby was not mine. When after two years my girlfriend left me to go back to the father of the child, losing the kid was one of the most difficult experience I ever lived. Having said that, can you leave ad hominem arguments out of this?
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
I, and all the other Dads at my workplace whose wives are also working, do all of these things too and our workmates without kids certainly do not feel like we are advantaged in any way.
If you work at a place where single men can take a day off whenever they feel like spending a day skiing or golfing, then I understand why they don't feel like you have an advantage. Otherwise, no matter what they say to you, they most probably do and they most probably think they deserve a better salary than you because of your lack of commitment to your work.
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
It's also interesting to note that the reason that Dads have more freedom to do these things now days is due to feminism
I somewhat agree on that, but the sad truth is that few men I know like to take care of a household or of a kid who's sick. 20 years ago I was thinking this was just a problem with the older generation, but most young men I now know still don't want to do these things. We still live in a world where men do very little and still abuse women.
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
So what you're saying is that the world has been shaped to value and reward male characteristics? Almost like it's a man's world?
No, I'm saying our societies were the result of something similar to natural selection, not the result of intelligent design. There is no conspiracy against women. If women were more aggressive than men, then this would be a woman's world.
Quote Posted by faetal
Learn the difference between the words "can" and "does".
Oh, I know the difference, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't believe for a second that talking about sexism will make it disappear.
Quote Posted by faetal
This debate has actually done huge amounts for women over the centuries. Don't forget that women didn't used to be able to vote. It was a shift in attitude brought about by a change in social culture which led to something being done about.
Women right to vote were often an indirect consequence of World War I and World War II. Men went to war so women went to work (and since they were cheap labor, companies kept them). This was one of the main cause for the change of the social culture, not some kind of cultural enlightenment due to talking.
Quote Posted by faetal
When men have to carry a child to term in their wombs and then breastfeed that child through its infancy, they'll have a point.
I do have a point (actually it's not mine, but that's irrelevant) and you didn't answered it. Having a child is only a personal choice. It is not a part of the job duty, not even a requirement imposed by society and so it shouldn't give any privileges.
Quote Posted by faetal
Sexism, implying that women don't do overtime and men can't look after households.
Women not doing as much overtime as men is pretty much facts, not sexism. And men who doesn't look as much as women after their household is also pretty much facts.
Quote Posted by faetal
Dad can't do this 50% of the time why? Again, implying that you see this as a woman's role.
Me? Again, what I think is irrelevant. The discussion is not about me, it's about society. And again, it's not that dads can't do this, it's that dads choose not to do this.
Quote Posted by faetal
So in summary, women shouldn't have equal pay rights because they are doing house work, looking after sick children and they should be grateful to not have to do as much work as men and therefore get less pay?
The "should be grateful" is only an attempt to manipulation. It makes you look bad.
My point is that women have statistically less value for an enterprise because of the constraint their personal life impose upon them. It's not because of an assumption, it's not because of a positive feedback loop, it's simply because women choose this role.
