Shadow : Source Announced. - by [NAUC]Chief
Kurgan on 11/4/2006 at 01:12
Quote Posted by New Horizon
I'm surprised nobody approached us Dark Modders about this.
One of you on the Dark Mod thread already commented about it, so I didn't bring it up. It was stated that adding m/p capability would be fairly easy, and would probably be included later, after the mod was already done and released, if interest warranted it (paraphrasing from memory, of course). My only hope at that point was that we'd see full missions designed for that sort of play, and not just thiefy "maps." Sadly, it doesn't seem to be something that's in the hands of the designers, really, and appears to totally rely on what mapper/mission authors are drawn to it after it's been released. A mod could fully support coop play, but if the users mainly want deathmatch stuff, that's what we'll see the most of.
New Horizon on 11/4/2006 at 01:49
Quote Posted by Kurgan
One of you on the Dark Mod thread already commented about it, so I didn't bring it up. It was stated that adding m/p capability would be fairly easy, and would probably be included later, after the mod was already done and released, if interest warranted it (paraphrasing from memory, of course). My only hope at that point was that we'd see full missions designed for that sort of play, and not just thiefy "maps." Sadly, it doesn't seem to be something that's in the hands of the designers, really, and appears to totally rely on what mapper/mission authors are drawn to it after it's been released. A mod could fully support coop play, but if the users mainly want deathmatch stuff, that's what we'll see the most of.
Yeah, multiplayer should be a piece of cake since it is already supported in Doom 3. If anyone wanted to be 'really' ambitious, after Dark Mod is released, they could port everything we've done into Quake 4 and take advantage of the extra work they've done to the multiplayer in that engine. I guess my main comment is, why start yet another Thief inspired project when one already exists in an engine that far better suits the gameplay and both projects could benefit. Just my thoughts.
kewlazme on 11/4/2006 at 02:07
Quote Posted by Kurgan
Nope, other way around, actually. I'd been looking forward to Thievery for ages, but then drifted away from the forums for awhile and forgot all about it. It had already been out for a couple of years when I remembered it and began playing, but by then it had already run its course, and any coop elements had faded away. 1.4 (or was it 1.5) gave us a couple of new maps, but 1.6 came out recently and only included some fixes and removed a few exploits, no new maps. Most of the fan and "clan" websites listed were long gone, and any remaining groups were full of people that had gotten so good at it that you couldn't join-in without getting trounced in seconds. Speed seemed to be the key now, since everyone knew the loot locations and sweet spots. They've even got a ton of TDQ videos (Thievery done quick) that show people beating entire missions in seconds.
Well you do bring up good points. And yes, the maps in Thievery are over-memorized and level-whored. But that took a few years of great fun before it got to that point. Back in 1.2 when I started playing TUT, things were a lot different, and the game play was still exciting.
I guess it appeals differently to different people. Personally, I was truly inspired by Thievery TvG to make Shadow: Source. I have been addicted to the mod since I first started playing it. Unfortunately, like you said, the maps are so well known that the competition is slim to none for the elite players. And the Engine is rather aged, so the likelyhood of new players is also very low.
But it is good to hear different opinions like this ahead of time so we can try to improve where we can ahead of time.
Kurgan on 11/4/2006 at 02:51
Quote Posted by New Horizon
I guess my main comment is, why start yet another Thief inspired project when one already exists in an engine that far better suits the gameplay and both projects could benefit.
One could say the same thing about any Thief "mod." Why create a new version of the game when the real thing already exists? Why not, instead, put all that effort into creating tweaks and minor modifications for it? Beef the graphics, add new weapons and items, create new creatures and characters, add a multiplayer patch, and so on (Morrowind is a good example of this). Remember, the original idea behind big mods was to take an existing engine and create an entire new game around it, with a different theme and style (like all the dozens of Half-Life mods that are completely unique). I'd not seen the concept of reinventing the same game over again until after Thief came along, --ironically the one time I
wouldn't have wanted to see a big mod. :)
Kurgan on 11/4/2006 at 03:03
Quote Posted by kewlazme
Well you do bring up good points. And yes, the maps in Thievery are over-memorized and level-whored. But that took a few years of great fun before it got to that point. Back in 1.2 when I started playing TUT, things were a lot different, and the game play was still exciting.
Nexis (a friend of mine) and I like to coop play together. MUCH more fun doing a mission together. We began playing Thievery and had a total blast. Heck, I don't even mind the engine. I'm so behind the times on harware, it looks fine to me. :) Still, I think it took us two months to run through the existing maps, and when we went to look for more, there was zilch. In fact, only a couple of new maps were in production (and a year later they're
still in production), and the general concensus is that FM-style maps should be avoided because they're not suitable for the usual bashfest sessions. I was really put off and annoyed by that. I'm also completely baffled why the idea of actual coop play isn't more popular, and deathmatch rules the field. Makes no sense to me. Seriously, what could be more fun than playing Thief? Playing it with a friend! Not just crushing each other's skulls. Yet that's what everyone seems to want. Wierd.
SubJeff on 11/4/2006 at 04:19
Quote:
One could say the same thing about any Thief "mod." Why create a new version of the game when the real thing already exists? Why not, instead, put all that effort into creating tweaks and minor modifications for it? Beef the graphics, add new weapons and items, create new creatures and characters, add a multiplayer patch, and so on
But the reason that Thief mods exists are very specific.
Thievery - because the Dark Engine cannot support multiplayer at all, never mind just for Guards V Thieves.
The Dark Mod - because it's a better engine than Unreal/Flesh, is more flexible, more suited to Thief and a generation up. T3Ed is awkward and has serious extensibility issues.
There is no obvious point to Shadow Source. Since the Radiant engine supports MP it would be feasable to created a MP version of The Dark Mod, and it is a more suitable engine.
Don't get me wrong - I prefer the Source engine to anything out there just because it did such a wonderful job in HL2. But you have to use an engine in a way that plays to it's strengths. Source and Thief makes less sense than Doom/Quake/Radiant and Thief.
However, I totally go with this idea of MP CO-OP Thief. It would be great and for that reason I hope someone adds it to TDM.
Campaignjunkie on 11/4/2006 at 07:56
(wow, I wrote a lot, and I didn't mean to. Sorry.)
In addition to "why create a Thief mod," also consider "how."
You're going to hit some (fairly serious) barriers with using Source for a Thief mod. I know because I considered doing a Thief Source mod myself, and actually started a very scaled-down prototype, but quickly encountered difficulty. I'm sure some of the problems have been discussed in this thread, but I haven't read it carefully, so I'll just state them anyway:
- Lighting.
Source uses precompiled radiosity light-mapping. This is great for action-type games, because the lighting in levels will rarely change, it runs well on computers, and it looks smooth / great / realistic. What it utterly sucks at is dynamic-ness, which is a lot of what Thief is about. There's already a hardcoded limit for the total number of switchable lights in an HL2 map (this limit is 32 lights). Also, if more than 3 switchable lights hit the same surface, it will cause lightmap errors and the face may turn pitch-black, among other errors.
Your alternatives are to use dynamic lights (which Source doesn't seem to like very much) or to limit levels to 32 torches spread across the map. Bad.
- Specular system.
Source is shiny, and it has lots of shiny surfaces, and it looks great. But like the lightmaps, it relies on precompiled cubemaps, which take a panoramic 360 screenshot of the entire room to create accurate reflections. This is great for action-type games. This is not great for Thief. What happens when the player puts a torch out and the room turns pitch-black? The cubemap isn't accurate anymore. Surfaces, like the player's metal sword, will still appear bright-orange shiny-ish, because the cubemap was photographed when the torch was still on and bathing the entire room in orange light.
Essentially, you would have to turn off specular effects for most of the map. Bad.
- NPC AI
It's a pain, to be honest. There's already some rudimentary support for alert levels, but it's going to take a considerable amount of work to extend that functionality into something tangible that the player sees and interacts with.
Lots of work. Bad.
- Models / Textures / Props
You're trying to recreate Thief in Source. This is going to take many models, many textures... many everything. This is suicide - your current design relies on a mod's greatest weakness, the inability to match professional studios in producing in-game assets. This is the same problem which New Horizon refers to - not enough models, not enough textures, etc.
Even more work. Bad.
You're not playing to your strengths. Some suggestions to remedy this:
- Drop the Thief setting. Yes, it's total heresy, but in all practical terms, what you need to create a rudimentary Thief atmosphere is simply out of your means. Be realistic.
- Don't use Source. It's not suited for Thief to begin with, unless you're willing to make some pretty harsh gameplay compromises.
- Redesign, and focus on the experience you're going for: co-op thievery. I mean REALLY focus. Cut out Guards v. Thieves. Focus on the bare essentials and test a prototype. If you're familiar with Garry's Mod, well, this is what he did. Eventually, he added more stuff on an already stable foundation.
I admire your intentions, and I feel the same way about the need for a great Thief co-op mod - but realistically, this isn't going to get finished without some significant changes.
Domarius on 11/4/2006 at 08:57
Quote Posted by Kurgan
Nexis (a friend of mine) and I like to coop play together. MUCH more fun doing a mission together. We began playing Thievery and had a total blast. Heck, I don't even mind the engine. I'm so behind the times on harware, it looks fine to me. :) Still, I think it took us two months to run through the existing maps, and when we went to look for more, there was zilch. In fact, only a couple of new maps were in production (and a year later they're
still in production), and the general concensus is that FM-style maps should be avoided because they're not suitable for the usual bashfest sessions. I was really put off and annoyed by that. I'm also completely baffled why the idea of actual coop play isn't more popular, and deathmatch rules the field. Makes no sense to me. Seriously, what could be more fun than playing Thief? Playing it with a friend! Not just crushing each other's skulls. Yet that's what everyone seems to want. Wierd.
Yeah what you need is to play it with people you know, who'll play it properly.
Far from "deathmatch dressed up as Thief" (god, I have to laugh at that term when applied to Thievery), this is almost exactly what you want from a multiplayer thief experience, except with the lack of a quality plot driven FM. Mostly the scenario is "steal eveidence and escape with 500 loot" etc. stuff like that, but asides that, its multiplayer Thief. And the scenery is still awesome. You have your cities, mansiions, dungeons, graveyards, etc.
If you want to be a guard you have to do it proplerly, otherwise you will have a long boring game of sitting around "waiting for something to happen" and then the mission suddenly ends with the THieves having completed all their objectives.
You need to round up all the AI guards and set them on optimal patrol routes and guard positions. You should take a contingency of guards around with you as you march around and ensure everything is in order.
I'm so good at being a guard captain, that my two brothers, when playing against me as 2 theives, have never won against me once. My watchful eye misses NOTHING.
Also, co-op as us 3 as thieves against all AI guards can be a little boring without a solid plot - it realy is reduced to what I think is the biggest flaw in the thief series - sit around and watch everyone till you know their exact patrol route, then jump on them when you know their back will be turned.
What we do is set a time limit - this makes things very movie like and exciting, as you have to base your desicions on quick calculated guesses, rather than monotonous repetition.
Kurgan on 11/4/2006 at 09:43
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
...the Dark Engine cannot support multiplayer at all...
Not true. System Shock 2 has a m/p patch, and uses the dark engine. It
can be done, n'yah, n'yah, n'yah... :)
Quote:
There is no obvious point to Shadow Source.
I wouldn't say that. Remember, the Dark Mod isn't actually
here yet. Just because something is in the works doesn't mean others can't try and do it, too. How many projects got dropped (in general, not just Thief) because something else was in production, only to see the frontrunner never materialize? T2X took five years, and finally got released. Honestly, with the track record of mods, I was stunned when that actually happened. Pleasantly so, of course. My only contention with mods is that they often seem to point in a direction that I, and those like me, don't look forward to (do I even need to say it? *chuckle*). I don't care who does what in the long run, I just want to see coop Thief, and ultimately want to be able to play all the fan missions coop, too. Mods worry me only in that, even if they allow for coop play, everyone will focus on deathmatch and not create compatible FMs, just maps.
Quote:
Since the Radiant engine supports MP it would be feasable to created a MP version of The Dark Mod, and it is a more suitable engine.
Never heard of it. What's Radiant?
Quote:
However, I totally go with this idea of MP CO-OP Thief. It would be great and for that reason I hope someone adds it to TDM.
Can't argue with logic like that. :)
Kurgan on 11/4/2006 at 09:49
Quote Posted by Campaignjunkie
Lighting.
Source uses precompiled radiosity light-mapping. This is great for action-type games, because the lighting in levels will rarely change, it runs well on computers, and it looks smooth / great / realistic. What it utterly sucks at is dynamic-ness, which is a lot of what Thief is about. There's already a hardcoded limit for the total number of switchable lights in an HL2 map (this limit is 32 lights). Also, if more than 3 switchable lights hit the same surface, it will cause lightmap errors and the face may turn pitch-black, among other errors.
Your alternatives are to use dynamic lights (which Source doesn't seem to like very much) or to limit levels to 32 torches spread across the map. Bad.
Y'know, you just hit on something that makes me like it all the more. Having limits like that would hinder "deathmatch" maps, and encourage people to create linked missions. There've been some pretty cool FMs that were written as several small missions, one triggering the other, instead of having everything loaded into one. Interesting...
