Shadow : Source Announced.

Fingernail on 12/4/2006 at 15:37

We're not opinionated and arrogant at all!

We're simply the best and that's an end to it. :cool:

Kurgan on 13/4/2006 at 10:39

@Neil: Thievery is still pretty cool. Yeah, you can get your ass handed to you in a small paper sack fairly easily, but don't forget that it's also a team game, and if you're playing on a server with experienced people, some of those die-hards will be teaching you and watching your back.

As for maps being glorified deathmatch, it's because that's how the majority wish to play it, not that it has to be that way. It's easier to create a "map" than it is to create a fully-developed FM. Path of least resistance, common denominators, and all that jazz. For things to be really good, we'd want to see the concept of coop play promoted, so more people would see the difference, get the idea, and toss-in their support and enthusiasm. If the whole deathmatch thing had been prevalent when Thief first came out, do you really think we'd see an FM community around now? Wouldn't have stood a chance. in that respect, we got lucky. :)

Anyway, do yourself a favor and don't give up on Thievery. You can get friends into it and host your own coop games, at least for awhile until the maps dry up, and if you want to play with the "big boys" on the servers, you can definitely learn alot from the bruising you'll invariably get. Heh heh. Oh, and last I knew, there was at least one "noob" server to play on, so you can get used to things and not get trashed before you can blink. Take Domarius's advice, get some friends together and play together privately (one of you hosting the game), and play the missions just like any Thief mission. It's a blast. Just don't forget, in Thievery, the guards wake back up!

@Domarius:

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But I don't know why someone was talking about it being for "just bashing each others heads in" - I've played online a few times with my brothers and it was never like that. All the games we played were centered around the mission goals.

That was me, and yep, that's the gist of it. If you've found online games that were coop, and everyone worked together on the missions without it being a deathmatch type session, I'm pleased as punch to hear it. Very cool. Please give more info on which games, etc. Only one I can think of (and admittedly I'm a little behind the times on things) is Sven Coop (Half-Life mod). I'm trying to get that puppy set back up so my friends and I can play. Won't compare to Thief, though. :) Sucks when you step into the shadows out of habit, but everyone still sees you. lol

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I think what would suffice is for DarkMod to become the focus, and people add MP co-op into that, and people can make a converter to convert the old maps into Doom 3 maps to run in DarkMod.

Sure its hard work, but a lot less than re-creating the entire game again.

I'm still for Shadow: Source being made, since we don't know how soon DM will appear. Always glad to see more Thiefy options to choose from. If they produce it, no reason you can't still play DM when it arrives, too.

However, you've touched on something I've been very eager to discover if it was possible, albeit in a slightly different direction. I'm referring to converting missions to other systems. Since Thievery is functional now, is it possible to convert a Thief FM over to it? That would solve a LOT of frustrations if it were, and we'd be able to coop play existing FMs.

@Raven

I'm with NH on this one. Slackers abound, even good intentioned ones (just look at all the stalled and failed mods out there), so being careful and protective of the project is only common sense, and the team doesn't have the luxury of worrying about whether that causes anyone's feathers to get ruffled. They're trying to do a job, and they want to do it right, so yeah, sometimes you've just gotta pull the shades down so people won't stare out the window, and sometimes you've gotta lock the door and not let the otherwise fun, life-of-the-party friend in, because as cool as he is, he's a distraction. And that doesn't even touch on the ones that would intentionally cause probs. No, I understand the protective approach all too well.

Mortal Monkey on 13/4/2006 at 12:15

Most multiplayer thief mods focus too much on thieves, and that takes the fun out of it. They are actually trying too hard. I'm having much more fun with a stealth suit in Planetside than thieving in Thievery.
In Thievery, guards are always looking for me. Or someone on my team. They know we're here, just not where. And guarding is utterly boring too, so guards do their flarescan rounds, or stack the objective with everything they can find.
In Planetside, you can get different kinds of armor. Stealth suit is only one of many, and it is the weakest of all of them. Zero armor points and only one pistol and 4 equipment slots.
Only about one in 20 use the stealthsuit, even fewer expect a stealthsuit to be used against them. That's why I love sneaking up on a hillside and wait for the sniper to fire a shot so I can execute him before he gets a chance to reload and change weapons. Or dodge enemy tanks as they almost accidentally run me over.

Someone should make a creature-clash mod. Hammerites vs mechanists vs maw critters vs cutthroats vs undead. The mechanists should have the coolest weapons and upgrades known to the steampunk era. The hammerrites should wield the most powerful magics and holy hammer. The cutthroats rely on standard issue swords and bows, they sure know how to handle them. The maw critters rely on the brute strength of the earth and the wind, and as the blood of mortals and undead alike spill on their roots, they absorb it and mutate into stronger and viler beings. The undead mostly just shamble around or pretend to be dead.
But what about the thief? The thief has only a grappling hook and lockpicks to begin with. But the thief can steal some of the equipment of the others. Not swords, bows and other weapons. Things like mines (even live ones if he's careful), flares, keys, holy water flasks and sunburst devices. And he can lock and unlock just about every door with his lockpicks, disable or modify every trap with stolen tools.
The thief cannot win, but he can sure run off with a lot of the prize money.

Kurgan on 13/4/2006 at 14:19

Y'see, that's my point in a nutshell. Look at the focus and wording of your comment. You're looking at the whole thing from the stance of combat and gain. "The thief can't win," them-versus-them-versus-them, weapons, weapons, weapons, etc. For someone like me, that sort of game sucks, no matter how cool it looks. The point of the game, --if it's the kind that appeals to my lot--, is the story. The protagonist (the character we play) is the focal point, and the interaction and decision making, combined with an immerisive, realistic first-person perspective, make it worth playing (and worth coming back to and playing again). I remember when I first played Deus Ex, I was so enthralled by things like the non-linear story, and by simple, but realistic, things like being able to walk up and actually talk to anyone in the game (kids, hobos, cops, hookers, you name it). Anyway, the two things about Thief that appealed to me were 1: the story that slowly unfolded and that I got to take part in, and 2: the look and feel of the "world." I'm a sucker for the thiefy aspects, like being invisible in shadows, climbing ropes, conking people on the noodle and knocking them out, stealth, and, of course, a mystery in general. I'm also a die-hard first-person-perspective junkie. Third-person or strat/tac stuff is a complete bore (well, it wasn't until I got turned on to FPS stuff).

So yeah, it's not the killing, and it's not the powers/gold/stuff that make it fun, it's the story, the insertion into that story, and the believability factor. Pure combat games lose that, at least for my ilk. That's why I love FMs so much. :)

Mortal Monkey on 13/4/2006 at 19:31

But wait, I thought this was a multiplayer mod? I can't say I've ever heard of a game with much of a multiplayer story, and there's probably a very good reason for it.

Kurgan on 14/4/2006 at 09:06

No, when it comes to Thief mods, the goal is to basically recreate Thief using more modern engines (Thievery being the exception, since it was intended primarily as a "multiplayer Thief mod").

Adding multiplayer capability is what many of us have been talking about, and praying for, and arguing over. :) Add to that the two different types of multiplayer (one being deathmatch, which doesn't allow you to play the actual missions, just fight together on maps, the other being coop, which actually allows you and others to play the full game/missions together), and the fact that the former inexplicably seems to be more popular than the latter, and thus received little to no support or design, and bingo, welcome to our (my?) confusion. <Chuckle>

Domarius on 14/4/2006 at 10:12

Actually, as i've said repeatedly - the so called "deathmatch" modes AREN'T ABOUT KILLING EACH OTHER - there are goals for each team on every map, and essentially this makes it like any other thief mission - minus the overarching plotline conecting several missons together. Okay?

Kurgan on 14/4/2006 at 11:48

I hear you, I simply disagree. Even if it's team-versus-team, and it's a race to achieve objectives before the other without necessarily killing each other, it's still not the same thing as an actual FM. If it were, there would be no need for "teams" at all, it would be everyone in the game working for the same mutual goal. I'm not debating whether that's a fun or desired game style, only noting the distinct differences between the two, and saying they (MP versus true coop) are very different critters. Once in a while I find the deathmatch, or team play scenarios enjoyable, but only rarely, to blow off a little steam. My personal taste is for the true coop environment, where I can hook up with a friend and play a full mission, unfold the mystery, and the session is no different than playing a bundled mission apart from there being two of us doing it. No time limits, no "others" working against us, etc. If done well, the differences can be subtle, I understand that, but it'll never really be the same thing. Like I said, I really dig Thievery, but of all the "maps" they've got, only one came close to being a real FM, and that one everyone dislikes, because it makes competative team play difficult. (But my friend and I had a blast tackling that one.)

[NAUC]Chief on 14/4/2006 at 12:22

which map out of curiosity ?

Kurgan on 14/4/2006 at 14:24

Hmmm. Good question. Can't think of the name of it off-hand, but it's easy to describe. Starts you off in the city, at night (duh --lol), and there's this really huge place that's somewhat elevated in the middle of town, like a cathedral with walls, gates, and plenty of ground around it. A couple of fountains with coins in them, as I recall, too. Five or six gaurds that patrol in circles around the joint, in two groups. There's a barn, and a small house that's the caretaker's digs, and that's right next to a kitchen and outdoor mess hall. Looking off the balcony area right there you can see the city below, and a lot of water that runs around the place. Great place to toss unconscious guards, heh heh. Doesn't kill 'em, but they can't get back up where you are. Sucks if you get whacked, though, 'cuz you've gotta get passed them all to get back up there. Anyway, the church, or whatever, has several tall towers around it, and you've gotta steal some stuff from them. Don't remember for sure, but I think there are some specific items you've gotta find. Lotsa territory to explore and play around in. Really enjoyed that one, and it wouldn't have been anywhere near as fun if I'd played it alone. Half the fun is getting a guard's attention, then running like hell and leading him right into my bud, diving aside, and watching him panic and run for his life as the guard chases him. lol I think half the game sometimes is just us playing tricks on each other. :)

Ok, looking at the maps, I see only three big ones, so I'm guessing it's TH-Cult that we're talking about. Sounds right, but I couldn't swear to it. I'll go see if I can find a screenie to verify that...

Alright, yep, that's the one. No screenshots, but found a description. TH-Cult_Final.unr is the file.