Shadow : Source Announced.

Domarius on 15/4/2006 at 02:44

Quote Posted by Kurgan

I hear you, I simply disagree.

Okay I see what you're saying, it's something different.

Thievery is not about killing each other, and is pretty close to a co-op experience. Yes you're trying to acheive the goals before the other team, but this is essentially what a typical Thief mission is.

What you're talking about is having plot unfold in front of your eyes, eaves dropping on conversations, etc.
Yes that's missing from Thievery.

demagogue on 15/4/2006 at 15:51

Two points here: (1) some thoughts on fitting multiplayer into Thief-like FMs and (2) my two cents on the HL2 total conversion project ... so read what you want.

(1) Re: Multiplayer FMs

Multiplayer always has problems with linear stories because you can't guarantee both people at the same time in the same place to see the plot develop. (I'm just thinking aloud here...)

Either (1) just one person sees it and the other is left out, or (2) you replay the event for the 2nd player (which sounds just wacky, but that's how WoW handles it ... the mega-dragon just respawns a few minutes after one person vanquishing it for the next adventurer in queue to slay ... which seriously devalues the story and seems unacceptable in this context), or (3) you could try to enforce some way of the players seeing the plot develop together (quest-creating readables get automatically shared when one person picks them up, or something like that), there may be some potential there but it would have to be developed as current FMs don't have this capability or design in mind, or (4) you just keep the plot as the backstory and have the mission largely standard thieving, and it seems like the best potential for coop among already-made FMs, e.g., missions like Art of Thievery and uncadonego's recent Thieves' Highway, etc. Anyway, (3) and (4) seem to have the best potential to go forward, (3) for in terms of what we can develop for the future and (4) for how to focus on existing T2 FMs.

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(2) Re: The HL2-TC Multiplayer-Thief Project

For what it's worth, I also vote for any multiplayer project to coat-tail on the work Dark Mod is doing ... because it's already over a year in development getting all the resources into order and there's not much doubting it will be released eventually, and is so better placed (the engine) for Thief-like gameplay than Source. It's just that the core team doesn't support multiplayer. But if most of the work doing multiplayer is balancing issues, I wonder if people serious about it couldn't start working on those sorts of issues now with what's already working, even in the early state Darkmod is in ... on a kind of parallel track to TDM, analogous to the role of beta-mappers. I don't have anything to do with the team nor know about the mechanics of something like this,* so I may just be whistling out my butt, but anyway it's worth putting on the table.

* It seems like it'd get pretty deep into core mechanics, but then again maybe it could be kept outside the formal TDM loop on the core features and put on it's own development track; as if just getting a head-start on building on a finished-TDM foundation before it's actually finished, getting regular updates like betamappers, if that's possible??

I just share the sentiment that it seems wasteful to devote so many resources to something (a HL2 TC for multiplayer-thief-gameplay) that will be rendered obsolete on the eve of Darkmod's release a few months later (if that; I actually predict TDM will come out first if you are just starting a TC now), because there's been so much stir around TDM about D3's multiplayer capability, so many people keep bringing it up, that I can't help expecting a lot of people will jump on developing it at that time ... I personally don't think people will ignore D3's multiplayer capability with TDM in-hand just because a multiplayer Source TC exists; it seems more likely they'll just push the Source TC to the margins of relevance like T1 FMs ... not least of which because, feature-for-feature, for thief gameplay Radient > Source -- why fight it unless you just want to be perverse?

But all this seems especially a waste when that *same* energy on the exact *same* field of assets could have been spent speeding the development of TDM with skinning, making objects, textures, etc, which won't be rendered obsolete after a few months. I found NH's arguments totally convincing in that regard. I don't know about the parallel-track idea or if there's another way forward, but if there's already a team that's really serious about this Source-TC idea and going forward with it, then people should be talking to people and at least a effort at seeing if there's a more efficient way at going about it. (... all of this being, as an outsider to any of these goings on, IMHO, of course).

Kurgan on 15/4/2006 at 16:22

Quote Posted by Domarius

What you're talking about is having plot unfold in front of your eyes, eaves dropping on conversations, etc.
Yes that's missing from Thievery.

You got it. :) However, I'll have to admit that Thievery doesn't completely fall into the range of typical MP sessions/games that I was generally complaining about. Sorta in-between. Thievery has true coop capability, but nobody makes use of it, and even the GvT sessions still have an element of suspense and goal-oriented play to them, just not the same thing as an actual, full FM. The key isn't to bash the deathmatch players, --although that is obviously a hobby of mine, heh heh--, but to promote the creation of full FMs for a coop environment, whichever one it may be (DM, Thievery, Shadow, etc). If we could just get FM designers interested in that, and not just in whipping up cool maps that have a few objectives tossed-in, I think the entire landscape would be much different, and far more fun. Every mod out there could add coop MP, but if nobody makes FMs for them, all our discussions are just academic.

Kurgan on 15/4/2006 at 16:43

@demagogue

Let me respond to those in reverse order. Regarding TDM versus Shadow, I agree that splitting resources is a bad thing, but I also think there are enough resources to go around so that both can be made without depriving the other, and having two options is better than one. For what it's worth, I heartily approve of the second project, as much as I do others such as T2X, and that Hammerite mod that I can't recall the name of at the moment. :) This is one party where I'm glad to see lots of people participating, even in segregated clusters.

Ok, about the coop FMs, I don't see the "key events" scenario you cited as being anything troublesome. If a few thieves are working together, and happen to be in different areas of the mission, instead of together, at the time a conversation or vital clue is triggered, that's ok. No biggie. They're a team, after all, and there's no reason the one that witnessed the clue couldn't relate any urgent info to his teammates. Even in Thievery, when playing with my pal Nexis, one of us would often have to inform the other of events witnessed ("Hey, when you come around that corner, hold for a sec and wait... I saw something moving there and you're gonna walk right into it"), or let the other know that you've acquired an imporant item and he doesn't need to go after it. usuall we play side-by-side, but yeah, sometimes we split up and tackle different objectives simultaneously.

Having triggered events only happen once, for whomever happens to be there at the time, adds to the suspense and realism, and an author would simply have to make sure it didn't re-trigger when someone else came within range. Only problem I can see would be the need to avoid linked-mission teleports (rare, but I've seen it before), where stepping through some portal loads an entirely different map, leaving other thieves in the previous one. I don't know how difficult it'd be to have players remain effectively connected, so that when they got there, too, they'd be in the same live environment as everyone else [in the new map], but that's certainly worth mentioning.

Cut-scenes and mid-mission briefings (again, a rarity) would have to be either eliminated, or only triggered once, as well. Shame, though, because I really loved it when one FM that came out years ago did that. The author wrote-in various conversations between Garrett and someone in the game, and it was very much like Deus Ex, where you just sat back and watched the encounter "play out" on its own, and couldn't do anything until it was over. Very cool, though.

demagogue on 15/4/2006 at 17:32

Just really quick, I'd distinguish the Source project from things like T2X, Cosas, Hammerite Imperium because those are actual, original FM campaigns ... of course they'll be different and original projects, that's the whole point, and the more/more diverse the merrier.

But a TC is something different, which is much more ambitious and is meant to be useful to the whole community, of more general utility, and last much longer ... it's an entire platform, and I suspect there can only be so many platforms an FM-centered community can effectively rally around.

I don't have anything per se against the project and certainly won't boycott it or anything absurd like that, and maybe it will appeal to the current Thievery crowd in spite of TDM. I just want what seems best for everybody in the long run, authors and players, and circling the wagons seems a better way to pull the Thief-community up to the next generation of engines than too much going-it-alone, IMO, at least in this case. Anyway, I already said my piece.

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I can see the points you are making re: the design of coop FMs and I see I wasn't thinking things out nearly enough or being imaginative enough ... of course reporting events to your co-thieves seems like the more natural way, and some of the other possibilies you mentioned sound promising. Anyway, I was just thinking aloud to provoke discussion. I generally think there needs to be more serious thinking about how to integrate traditional (linear) narrative devices into multiplayer gaming, and I like talking about it and being imaginative about it ... (I also think the team that figures that out may be heirs to the next gaming revolution, and get the best of both worlds artistically and economically.)

The FM with the DX-like cutscene you are thinking about is the first mission of Cosas, Meeting at the Inn, which cuts mid-game into a dialogue between the PC (Dante) and his blacksmith friend.

New Horizon on 15/4/2006 at 18:44

I just wanted to echo what demagogue was saying in the above post. T2X, Cosas, Hammerite Imperium all share many of the same resources, they're on the same engine and are not total conversions of a different engine. Dark Mod has a 2 1/2 year lead on what you're proposing to do in the source engine, and you're likely going to face greater hurdles than we have, given the engine is not as well equipped to handle a Thief styled game as Doom 3.

I'm not on a crusade to 'make everyone use Dark Mod' but I am rather trying to raise awareness of the fact that there are only so many programmers, artists, modelers and sound techs to go around within in the community. Believe me, I've tried to find new recruits to help us populate our textures, models...ect and it's not easy finding a dedicated team. I feel our 'core' Dark Mod team is a rare example in the current state of modding. Mods these days require a hell of a lot more work, they're actually more like super mods, especially a total conversion that requires rebuilding the game from the ground up. If we had just two or three dedicated texture artists, each working on a texture theme and contributing two textures a day, we could likely have a fair amount textures finished in 5 to 6 months....probably enough to be considered complete and anything else would be a bonus.

If you're just starting now, then you can expect to finish at least 2 years after us...more if you're planning on making a campaign at the same time.

While it is true that you are offering the community 'more choice', you are also further dividing the community by requiring them to own...yet another game to partake in multiplayer missions that can easily be supported in Dark Mod. In my humble opinion, the best way to help the community is through partnership, something sorely lacking in my eyes. I've seen numerous projects announced, all wanting to 'recreate' Thief in one form or another, but none willing to help those already in the trenches when I have approached them.

I can't speak authoratatively for the whole team, but if you are serious about completing your project...then assemble your core team, and if at that time you have changed your mind...approach us and our teams can discuss 'sharing' tech and other resources. Each project, while different, will benefit and the community benefits because it will get two different products based on the same engine.

Domarius on 15/4/2006 at 22:49

Cuscenes are an easy problem solved. When one person triggers it, just have EVERYONE see it no matter what they are doing. I've played PC Co-op games where they do this and it's fine.

The reason you don't see as many co-op games as death match games is co-op is harder, and not just at the technical level but at the level design too.

But one easy way around most of the problems would be to have a zone that doesn't unlock the door in front of you untill all your teammates are present in the zone, and will give you a message saying so, kind of like an air-lock on a spaceship.

plebeian on 16/4/2006 at 07:23

WHat I'd like to know, is who are all these talented artists, modelers, sound guys and coders who are ready and willing to join this new multiplayer Source project, but who have ignored The Dark Mod's requests for the last year and a half?
Thief fans are they?
If these people joined TDM, we could have the game finished within the year, and then start on multiplayer.

Kurgan on 16/4/2006 at 10:37

Quote Posted by demagogue

Yeah, I understood the diff. I was mainly mentioning them in the context of multiple Thief-related projects existing that were moving along successfully without harming the other. There are so many people here, and I'm sure many with the talent and skills to participate, that I doubt any "other" TC would really deprive the other of talent. I'm not a designer (maybe it's my colorblindness, but I can't "see" within dromed), just a writer, so maybe I'm talking out of my tush and just don't know it. :)

Quote:

But a TC is something different, which is much more ambitious and is meant to be useful to the whole community, of more general utility, and last much longer ... it's an entire platform, and I suspect there can only be so many platforms an FM-centered community can effectively rally around.

I can't argue that, I can only respond that, from my perspective as a fan, I'm happy to see any and all such projects, and am pleased to support 'em all, if I can. Whether that's practical on a large scale or not, well, you may be right. I honestly don't know.

Quote:

I can see the points you are making re: the design of coop FMs and I see I wasn't thinking things out nearly enough or being imaginative enough ... of course reporting events to your co-thieves seems like the more natural way, and some of the other possibilies you mentioned sound promising. Anyway, I was just thinking aloud to provoke discussion. I generally think there needs to be more serious thinking about how to integrate traditional (linear) narrative devices into multiplayer gaming, and I like talking about it and being imaginative about it ...

It probably deserves its own thread, but yeah, I completely agree. I find it a very interesting and worthwhile topic for discussion. Quite enjoyable, really.

Quote:

(I also think the team that figures that out may be heirs to the next gaming revolution, and get the best of both worlds artistically and economically.)

On that note, I've been giving it some thought, and it occurs to me that a TC could make more of a contribution, and a greater difference to the community, by not just incorporating MP/coop, but by gearing the default missions to that primary gaming style. It'd set an example for those that came afterwards wanting to design new missions. Imagine a TC being released that had a dozen or more MP-FMs (maybe a campaign, along with a few standalone missions), and a couple of "maps" tossed-in for team/versus style play? Heck, for that matter, what if one of these campaign projects were to adapt itslelf to a forthcoming TC, with an emphasis on cooperative play, possibly with a simultaneous release? That would be incredible. :)

Quote:

The FM with the DX-like cutscene you are thinking about is the first mission of Cosas, Meeting at the Inn, which cuts mid-game into a dialogue between the PC (Dante) and his blacksmith friend.

Y'know, I remember that one, but don't think that's the one I was remembering. I was thinking of two things off-hand, one being Deus Ex, the other an FM. The FM was broken into segments, and I think the author set up those segments as separate, linked mission files. Something like that. Instead of the briefing vid, it begins like a normal game, you move towards the door, and upon entering, it switches to the cut-scene style (but done in-game, like Deus Ex), then it loads the main mission. I recall that it did it like that at least once more either during the game, between goals, or at the end. Been ages, so I'm probably forgetting alot. I am certain about the beginning, though, where the briefing was substituted for a third-person view of Garrett talking to the contact, which sets up the mission. Either way, it was a very cool idea, and I remember thinking at the time it would probably be copied by a lot of designers, then surprised later when it wasn't.

Kurgan on 16/4/2006 at 11:05

Quote Posted by New Horizon

I'm not on a crusade to 'make everyone use Dark Mod' but I am rather trying to raise awareness of the fact that there are only so many programmers, artists, modelers and sound techs to go around within in the community. Believe me, I've tried to find new recruits to help us populate our textures, models...ect and it's not easy finding a dedicated team.

I'm willing to help anyone that needs it, but I'd have to be taught how to do what needs to be done. I can't "see" inside of editors like dromed. All those multicolored wire meshes look like a complete mess to me. I've been praying for years that someone would create a WYSIWYG editor, like (www.overseer3d.com) Overseer 3D, that could allow a designer to save in a compatible format for FMs. So far, though, nothing of that nature has materialized.

Ah, but one thing I could do, if desired, is voice work. I can do quite a few good ones, ranging from some hyperactive top-40 DJ to a deep, rasping Clint Eastwood meets Darth Vader (often comes across as a really pissed-off Optimus Prime for some reason --I think I smoke too much). Heck, I got my nick, Kurgan, because I looked and sounded like him (used to scare people on the street, and didn't undertand why until someone told me to go see my twin in the movie). Of course, that was 20 years ago, and apparently I switched from taking heads to eating them (or so my expanding mid-section implies), but I've still got my voice. :)