Queue on 6/5/2011 at 02:45
Though it's sacrilege, I've been on the verge of starting this thread for awhile, now. And, with Sulphur's and Dia's recent posts...
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Anybody expecting ThiAf to be a true 'Thief' game when it comes it out is delusional at best. Lower your expectations unless you're the type that enjoys being massively butthurt. LGS is
gone, people. The formula for successful development right now is commercialism - expect reductionism and pop gaming 101.
Quote Posted by Dia
Unfortunately, I agree with Sulphur. :( The more I read/hear about T4, the more I realize I'll probably have to play it with the lack of expectations I
didn't have when playing TDS for the first time.
*reminds self to stock up on some anti-depressants, just in case* ;)
...I felt that it was no time like the present (or whatever that means). So, now is your chance, folks. In your opinion, why should there, or shouldn't there, be a Thief 4?
I'm mostly just posing the the question, and staying out of it. But, the one reason against a Thief 4 that sticks out for me, and irrespective of what the game was like, is that the story truly ended with T: DS. But, I'm more interested in what everyone else (if anyone else) thinks.
jtr7 on 6/5/2011 at 03:31
The over simplified answer is: Yes, if it is truly done "well" and done "right". No, if it is not even done "right", regardless of how "well."
I really do not want to feel like they should've left it alone after it's too late to change anything.
I really want it to feel like home sweet home without being anything anyone could justifiably call a rehash, but I don't know that a new studio trying to make a big AAA splash will take the risks a fundamentally sound Thief game requires, so I have my doubts.
Renault on 6/5/2011 at 03:49
The answer is yes. Even though the game likely won't live up to LGS standards, there's bound to be some good things connected with it. A Stephen Russell quote, some good music, an interesting cutscene or two, and of course the ultimate - an SDK and/or level editor. Any of those things (but especially the editor) make it all worthwhile. Even TDS had The Cradle.
For me, personally, if the game sucks, it won't take away from anything else Thief. The first two games will always be classic, and some crappy sequel can't change that.
DJ Riff on 6/5/2011 at 07:20
Quote Posted by Brethren
For me, personally, if the game sucks, it won't take away from anything else Thief. The first two games will always be classic, and some crappy sequel can't change that.
QFT.
Fafhrd on 6/5/2011 at 07:57
It seems silly that you're letting Sulphur and Dia's whingeing (based on nothing of actual substance), effect your outlook on the game. At least wait until E3 before adjusting your expectations. There are (imo) only two genuinely questionable design decisions that this studio has made with DX, and the Deus Ex franchise is such a feature heavy beast that stuff was bound to creep in.
Thief is comparatively simple. They'd have to be MONUMENTALLY retarded to cock it up. T: DS is an aberration caused primarily by the technology of the time. Advances in environment streaming and animation, as well as much more robust console hardware should largely negate any of those problems for Thief 4.
Sulphur on 6/5/2011 at 08:44
I'm not 'whinging'. Thief may be comparatively simpler, but that depends on what you're comparing it to. Forget Deus Ex, a comparison of Thief to Splinter Cell would be far more apt.
DE: HR shows you where exactly Eidos's focus lies, and while it looks like it's going to be fun, it's undeniably less of an immersive sim and more of a 'console shooter with three different but cool-looking approaches to your primary objective'.
So if you think that for ThiAF, a game that features dark environments without glowy telltales or objective pointers or built-in hints or all that lovely stuff that breaks your sense of immersion isn't in the cards, you're a more optimistic man than I. And that's the minor stuff.
There are plenty of bigger things that are far harder to get right, and chief among those is the fiction. LGS was unique in that it paid careful attention to its game's universes and stories and weaved compelling stories around them all the while doing what were essentially experimental takes on the FPS, the most mainstream game genre ever. That sort of balance between story and gameplay is nowhere on display today, least of all in FPSes: what are the chances that a company with no history is going to be able to take that universe and flesh it out and make an actual, proper Thief story out if it when Ion Storm, who had people from LGS, was unable to do so?
The odds look pretty low to me. My 'whinging' is a direct response to anyone whose wishful thinking is untempered by logic: if you don't expect much, you won't be as hurt when the game finally arrives. If it actually makes those million-to-one odds and hits that bullseye square in the centre from a million miles away, you might even be pleasantly surprised.
If you want a recent example of this, look at what happened with Bioshock and the massive outpouring of bile: it was like hearing the forum's collective retch and gurgle for weeks on end. I'm optimistic by nature, but given the current state of gaming? A cynical response until the pudding's proven seems the far more logical approach to me.
Dia on 6/5/2011 at 12:44
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
It seems silly that you're letting Sulphur and Dia's whingeing (based on nothing of actual substance), effect your outlook on the game.
I may whine every now & then, but I most certainly do NOT 'whinge'. :p And btw; I felt I was only being realistic. Like jtr, I'd love to see T4 turn out to be an exciting, updated version of TMA and TDP, but that's just not gonna happen.
Brethren's post made me realize that yes; in spite of trying to keep my expectations low, there probably will be
some aspects of T4 that
might be enjoyable. But I really do think Sulphur's predictions are closer to what the reality of T4 will be.
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
T: DS is an aberration caused primarily by the technology of the time. Advances in environment streaming and animation, as well as much more robust console hardware should largely negate any of those problems for Thief 4
TDS was no aberration; it was a totaly f-up caused by Eidos pandering to the unclean masses rather than trying to remain true to all the things that made TDP & TMA successes (in the eyes of die-hard Taffers, that is). Your statement regarding advances in technology proves that you're totally missing the point.
Should there be a T4? Sure; why not? It's fun to be a little masochistic now & then.
Briareos H on 6/5/2011 at 14:02
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Thief is comparatively simple. They'd have to be MONUMENTALLY retarded to cock it up.
IMO Thief is much easier to cock up than any Deus Ex game. The margin for error is quite thinner with Thief game mechanics where you have to make every core component perfect. Comparatively, it doesn't matter if the shooting in DX sucks because that's not what makes the game immersive.
Anyway, I don't doubt both DXHR and T4 will be fun, cool games. After now two years of going through ports or multiplatform games, I even accept without too much disgust that the feeling of the game and interface itself will be perfectly shiny and smooth - as required for a console game(1).
What made the legacy of Thief however was the simple effectiveness and immense replayability of OMs and the ability to create FMs. I'm not expecting this to happen. The target audience compromises(2) are bound to hurt the balance of a slow game where, let's be honest, there is rarely a lot going on. To make the game immersive, they will have to work against many current gaming paradigms - namely but not restricted to: third person sneaking, "visceral" combat, immediate identification of what can be interacted with, progression checkpoints, explicit exposition of all game mechanisms and playstyles, focus testing-based level design, hints system, compulsion to maximize the number of scripted scenes in order to capture a short attention span.
If they could get rid of all those, even a bad interface wouldn't be able to ruin the game. Are they going to? Heh, have you listened to the way Jonathan Jacques-Belletête talks about his vision of game design? Not gonna happen.
(1) yes, in my opinion this is a bad thing, but I'm not going to develop that
(2) whoever's ready to brandish the "elitist" baton, please do. There is no shame in it. Expecting creators to be elitist is common in all forms of art, hell even at work it's the only way to get the best things done.
Koki on 6/5/2011 at 16:26
Of course there shouldn't be. I'd go as far as saying sequels and expansion packs are generally a bad idea as far as videogames go. Even more so in these dark times, obviously
Fafhrd on 6/5/2011 at 18:16
Quote Posted by Dia
TDS was no aberration; it was a totaly f-up caused by Eidos pandering to the unclean masses rather than trying to remain true to all the things that made TDP & TMA successes (in the eyes of die-hard Taffers, that is). Your statement regarding advances in technology proves that you're totally missing the point.
If you think that the majority of the most questionable design decisions were handed down from Eidos corporate and not dictated by the constraints of the technology ISA was working with, then you're proving you don't know what the hell you're talking about. The tiny, split levels (which necessitated limiting the possible approaches), climbing gloves, lack of swimmable water, loot glint, arrow trails, nuclear frob highlights, and the shitty movement system
all had their source in ISA trying to build a Thief game on an engine that was not remotely fit for purpose, for one of the most severely constrained hardware platforms imaginable, and spending two years hammering on it before giving up and basically throwing out all the licensed code, starting from scratch, and sprinting through to make release without enough time to fine tune the mechanics.
But please, keep clinging to the past and the idea that Eidos 'didn't get it' and your borderline persecution complex, and taking conjecture from people with the same complete lack of information as yourself as fact. I'm sure it'll pay off gloriously for you.
