TheGrimSmile on 28/5/2009 at 21:17
I was just thinking about this, and came up with some positives and negatives.
Note, I am a rather bash-happy individual, and I'm not here to be scolded on that fact.
I'd love some input!
Positives:
-In Framed, it was nice to have a knockout limit, and required some more sneaking, which was exciting.
-Guards with metal helmets also were nice, as it created a situation in which you had to sneak about without limiting you for the whole level.
-Limited knockouts give the game more depth, as your are forced to consider other tools and routes.
-This is just a personal thing, but when I do have to watch where I swing, it feels nice to know someone else is alive while sneaking around in a creepy environment. Unless there aren't any humans in the level...
That's all I've got :/
Negatives:
-The knockout limit in Framed was nice, but, that being said, the level was flooded with shadows to make it easier for my brain-smashing self. The limit, therefore, cannot be equally appreciated by the people who sneak everywhere and the people who leave the whole building asleep.
-People will always find a way to work around things, no matter in a game or in life. For example, in Misson X, after I ran out of the various ways to knock out guards, I simply stabbed them repeatedly in the back with the knife, which was just as effective, if not a little noisy. The whole thing kind of backfired...
-Personally, I might get a little mad if forced to play all missions with a knockout limit.
Some other notes on the subject:
-How do you feel about what inhuman enemies you can and cannot knock out? Zombies certainly make sense... it is kind of weird to knock out burricks, though...
-Do you think any other knock out methods could be implemented well into the Thief universe?
-On the other hand, do you think any other method of limiting knock outs could be put in?
That's it!
Stath MIA on 28/5/2009 at 21:31
I like the idea of a difficulty slider for knockouts, let it have levels 0-10 with 0 being no limit and each of the others representing an additional 10% of disallowed knockouts for the mission so you can set your own goals. For example, on an easy level one might set the slider to 8-10 while on a really hard level one could leave it down at 0-2 and the extremist ghosting players could just leave it up at 10 all the time. Everyone's happy.
Queue on 28/5/2009 at 21:41
Interesting question as I never really thought about how bash-happy I am sometimes (knocking everybody out just for giggles--even while they sleep). But I'm with Stath's suggestion, knockout limits for difficulty levels would be kinda sweet.
Dia on 28/5/2009 at 23:42
I disagree. I really don't like KO limits; period. If the KO limit is made optional, then that would work for me, since when there's an optional or 'bonus' objective I don't like I simply choose not to do it. Same goes for no-kill, 100% loot, and covering a certain percentage of the map objectives. Make them optional, not forced please.
Stath MIA on 28/5/2009 at 23:49
I'm definitely with you Dia, that's why I suggested that it be a separate slider (on a second read through I guess I probably should have made that a little more clear). There are days where I cannot resist the urge to bash heads and other days where I get ticked at myself if someone notices me.
Tail on 29/5/2009 at 01:06
Restrictions and such the game is enforcing on you are all pretty irrelevant to ghosting, since the player is imposing the restrictions on themselves anyway (and quite a lot of them if you're doing it properly :P). It doesn't really matter if they can tick an option for it. So I don't think ghosting should ever be taken into consideration.
But, more to the specific topic...
If guards weren't able to be knocked out when they're searching for you, that could have quite an impact. Possibly only for hard/expert. The first time I played through Thief, I just assumed it wasn't possible and never even tried. But being able to jump up and down in the darkness and K.O. anybody that comes looking removes a lot of challenge. I was almost sad to find out I could do it...although it is kind of fun. :P
SneakyJack on 29/5/2009 at 01:21
I really dislike KO limits. :(
rainynight65 on 29/5/2009 at 05:27
The beauty of Thief was always that it left most things to the player. Do you want to ghost a level or just bash everyone over the head? Do you want to douse every torch and turn off as many lights as possible or rather experience the thrill of dashing from shadow to shadow? That accomodated a variety of player styles without having to rely on difficulty sliders and stuff. Why would anyone want to take that away by, say, imposing KO limitations? I think it's OK to have AI states in which they can't be knocked out, or even opponents that can't be knocked out at all. But having a KO limit can lead you into a dead end faster than you can spell out KO. Let's say I went a bit trigger-happy and exhausted my limit halfway through the level, and come across a tight spot where my only choice is to KO the guard, but I can't. So I have to restart the level, and that is such an immersion breaker. Garrett should have all means to his disposal at all times. I am good with the killing restriction on higher difficulties, but that's about it.
Kin on 29/5/2009 at 06:12
A KO limit is an unnatural addition to game. What will be next don't put out more than 5 torches?
A more natural approach would be a helmet that makes some guards unblackjackable.
The game must have it's difficulty coming from the engine dinamics and not by rules like "don't do more than this or you will fail".
5tephe on 29/5/2009 at 07:00
Quote:
If guards weren't able to be knocked out when they're searching for you, that could have quite an impact. Possibly only for hard/expert. The first time I played through Thief, I just assumed it wasn't possible and never even tried.
Wait: you CAN knock out guards while they are looking for you? :wot:
