Bulgarian_Taffer on 1/6/2009 at 09:53
I don't like to see knockout limits. One of the things I mostly hate in some missions is forced ghosting.
SubJeff on 1/6/2009 at 10:10
Arbitrary limits no, some enemies who cannot be knocked out (eg, with helmets) yes.
MaxDZ8 on 1/6/2009 at 11:35
Thumbs down for knockout limit abuse.
Some here and there is ok but I also hated most ghosting requirements, not always justified.
The idea of an automated slider is nonsense.
Yandros on 1/6/2009 at 13:49
Quote Posted by TheGrimSmile
Anyway, any ideas how to fix this oddity that a knockout limit creates?
Make it
optional. Then people who like get a warm fuzzy when it's marked complete at the end of the mission, and those who don't get to ignore it. Personally I thought Optional objectives were underused in T2.
Renault on 1/6/2009 at 14:10
Sometimes it does feel a bit silly when you're walking through a level and everyone (or nearly everyone) is knocked out. I mean, at some point, you'd think realistically that enemy AI are going to wonder where everyone has gone - I'm guessing this is the purpose to a KO limit.
I always interpreted the KO limit as Garrett's assessment of how many people he can take out before anyone would get suspicious. If you want to get really sophisticated, you could do a range (KO no more than 4-8 AI), but the closer you get to the high end of the range, the greater the chance that someone will sound the alarm (or something similar).
I like KO limits in one respect - that Garrett gets to choose. You don't get that with the metal helmet AI. It's more fun if Garrett can use his judgment to determine who is the easiest target to take out of a certain scenario. I'd also like to see AI who wake up, and new AI brought into a level after a certain amount of time (some FMs do this). It would also be cool to see, if one AI notices another gone missing, he doesn't set off an alarm but instead sends a new guy to replace the missing guy.
charpe6 on 1/6/2009 at 14:17
They should put in difficulty sliders for things like knockout limits and have built in support for ghosting and other playstyles. Thief 3 was supposed to have these things but I guess taking an afternoon to actually put in replayability and fun was too difficult when you have things like loot glint and Xbox loading zones to implement.
Yandros on 1/6/2009 at 14:41
I understand your sentiment, but that's hardly something they could have implemented in an afternoon.
TheGrimSmile on 2/6/2009 at 02:42
I'm persoanlly glad that TDS didn't have sliders. I've seen this idea a lot around here and I don't really care for it. I can't really pinpoint it, so it's not that valid of an arguement, but it's just too much to figure, too many posibilities. As ZP once said (in a somewhat unrelated way) I want some choice, but I also want to have the game made for me, instead of me having to dictate every part of a mission.
The idea of having more guards come in is nice.
I do believe TDS did this in the city, where, if a dead or unconcious body was found, more guards would be sent in. (At least, I think so...)
What dictates how many and where guards are sent in, though?
And no alarms, yuck. I dealt with enough alarms in the first two games.
MaxDZ8 on 2/6/2009 at 14:32
I also hate the alarms but I don't think pulling them out would be wise. They are really meant to be there after all.
Namdrol on 2/6/2009 at 16:08
Framed is one of my favourite all time levels and I played (always do) on expert
but I also enjoy knocking out everyone and making big piles of bodies :ebil:
So I wouldn't like general limits.
I think it also would depend on if there were "open" areas like the city in TDS.
And then as always, I think each mission should have its own set of objectives, limits etc depending on difficulty settings.
Personally one of the biggest upsets for me in TDS was the "permission" to kill on expert"
