So most people like FMs that essentially are 3d point and click classic adventures?

Random_Taffer on 11/2/2017 at 17:59

There are tons of fan missions that meet those wants. It sounds like you just want to play the same thing over and over again. That's cool, man. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy missions that don't meet your exact formula, but after years of missions that do that exactly, I think a lot of folk (myself included) want something different. We're simply tired of the same missions over and over. We want new stories, new enemies, and new locations, and if they maintain the classic stealth element that made the original games so great, then that's even better.
And hey- there's some excellent dromed tutorials out there. If you join us, you might even spark a movement- a reformation of sorts to the classic style of mission.
Either way, I'll probably continue making missions that I like to make and I'll just be glad that more missions are being created, even if they are a little dull.

It's a little grating to see you say you play a mission that wastes your time.
I know you understand the hundreds of hours of work that goes into these things and for you to claim that it wastes your paltry half hour is pretty hilarious. Don't worry though, I'm sure if you delete the mission and send a nicely worded email to the fan mission author, they'll have no problem giving you your money back.

Renault on 11/2/2017 at 19:44

I think what R_T is really trying to say is...if you don't like it, leave. No one is forcing you to play a completely free game.

But so sorry your precious time was wasted. Really.

Tannar on 11/2/2017 at 23:21

Comments about wasting time aside, I thought the OP was actually a reasonable observation. But if you aren't completing 95% of the missions you play, maybe you should consider playing something else. I do understand what your complaints are about, and I agree with some of that to a point. But in answer to your original questions:

Quote Posted by zajazd

So my question is do people really like getting stuck all the time? Doesn't that break immersion for you?

My answer to your first question is partly my answer to your second question as well. First off, no, I don't like getting stuck, but it rarely happens. I don't get stuck most of the time, let alone all of the time. That's not hubris, I'm not saying I'm a better player or anything like that, but from what I see in the mission threads, I think I may be a more patient player than most. From what I can see, most people rush through Thief FMs, as if there was some reward for finishing in the shortest amount of time. To me, that is SO not what Thief is about. I think the reason there are so many requests for help is, for the most part, due to people not taking their time and exploring, examining, and thinking. It makes me wonder sometimes why they are playing Thief. I watch Let's Play videos and it is really very common to see people buzz through a room or other location without taking the least time to look around and become familiar with it.

As for whether or not getting stuck breaks immersion, I'd say no, not most of the time. If this weren't a game, if it were real life and I was out in the middle of the night trying to break into some warehouse or something and I couldn't figure out how to do it, would I become less immersed? Is it even possible to become "less immersed" in one's own life? I think I'd be trying like mad to find a way in, and maybe getting creative about it. I'd be pretty immersed in the experience. Why should it be different in a game? When I get stuck, I usually just take my time and explore. Most of the time I find the way to proceed, whether it be an item such as a key, or a route I hadn't seen before, etc. I realize that many people don't enjoy hunting around for a way to proceed. I like that kind of challenge. That's one of the things I like most about Thief. I don't want to rush through. I don't want the mission to end. I want to savor every minute of it, and enjoy becoming familiar with the places the author has created.

Surely some missions lend themselves to this better than others. And certainly there are times when it becomes tedious because the author hid something so well that no amount of searching will discover it short of hunting every pixel. Naturally that's no fun. But I've played hundreds and hundreds of fan missions, and in my experience that kind of thing is actually pretty rare.

greenie2600 on 12/2/2017 at 01:37

For me, this is one of the biggest problems with many FMs. It's very frustrating to invest 30 - 60 minutes into a mission, only to end up running around for another hour with no idea what to do next. (And I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me.)

I call this sort of thing "fake difficulty". It certainly makes a mission harder, but it doesn't make it more challenging (because overcoming the difficulty depends on dumb luck or sheer stamina, rather than skill or cleverness).

Judith on 12/2/2017 at 09:44

I think mission authors are free to make them anyway they choose, although that doesn't make them immune to critique. (Only not releasing your work really does.) Naturally, you can't please everyone, there's always going to be a group of naysayers, and all you can do is see whether at least some of their points
are valid, so you can learn something.

Still, people who worked on Thief 1-3 often say this in interviews or GDC presentations: "Ultimately, Thief is about movement in 3d space". The space itself is a puzzle to solve. Light, darkness, tools to modify it, guard paths to observe and to avoid. The pacing, the tension, the excitement of getting inside seemingly impenetrable mansion, castle or bank. The problem is, that design philosophy is very hard to implement, especially for amateur level designers. It requires a lot od design knowledge, planning, and iterative workflow. Most people just make a room, add lights, guards, and details, then move onto the next one. Or try to model a realistic layout of a location based on floorplans and photos. That's why I think there are not enough "classic Thief gameplay" FMs, because they require much more than that to be considered "classic". Skaky's latest missions are a good example, Eternauta's "Kingsbridge" is a proof that he knows his stuff, and Dark Mod's "Volta and the Stone" feels like Bafford had a cousin in an alternate world (that's a compliment). Anything else that I'd remember from recent years that would match that gameplay style and level of quality? Nope.

zajazd on 12/2/2017 at 10:16

Quote Posted by greenie2600

You put that better into words than I could.

zajazd on 12/2/2017 at 10:32

Quote Posted by Random_Taffer

Don't worry though, I'm sure if you delete the mission and send a nicely worded email to the fan mission author, they'll have no problem giving you your money back.

I write short comments for FMs in DarkLoader to sort them, like good, great, scary and so on. I would offend a lot of authors if I posted a screenshot of my DarkLoader...

But on more serious note, I loved your Godbreaker Ep1, until I could not find the hidden switch to save my life, and when I finally gave up and checked youtube I asked the rhetoric question REALLY? and quit in frustration. But please don't take that personally, as I said that's how it is for me with 95% of FMs :D

Ricebug on 12/2/2017 at 13:03

Quote Posted by thief-outside-a-box

Be it the rules of the original without notice (golden bootles = loot; green bottles = mere objects) or the fm-providers' own, like using a new object which in 9/10 cases is just indestructible decoration but in one instance, without any hint, becomes necessary to interact with/destroy to proceed in the mission.

I rarely see this practiced, and I don't remember EVER frobbing a green bottle that was loot. Custom objects inserted by the author are very nicely done these days. They almost cry out to be frobbed. The general rule on objects: if they go into your inventory, they have a use.

Quote:

More than object-hunting I mind readables. A good text can elevate a mission through the roof, providing deeper insight into the psyche of the villain/people you are supposed to stay away from... but if a mission consists of many, long readables out of which some bury a hidden vital clue whatsoever, that's a dealbreaker for me.

Again, readables have improved over the years. Mission authors who fancied themselves as Ernest Hemingway sacrificed the time they could have spent improving the gameplay. OTOH, there are some missions where the writing is tight, pertinent, and actually fun to read. The cool thing about Thief, is that bad grammar fits better than does "proper" English, German, etc.

Kurhhan on 12/2/2017 at 14:18

This thread getting more and more paranoid.

Judith on 12/2/2017 at 14:51

One thing hasn't improved with readables: length. You can easily see it by e.g. Fen's videos. Sometimes he reads the damn thing for 5 or 10 minutes. If you want to be a writer, go be a writer. If you want to be a good level designer: show me, don't tell me. Learn about environmental storytelling in games. Trying to imagine what happened in a certain place, figuring out who lived there - it's 1000 times more engaging for the player. Short readables are fine, and by short I mean 200-300 words, not 1000.