So,... what's the situation on the Dark engine source code?

Albert on 10/8/2011 at 19:47

Also, Square enix who owns Eidos now is not real big in the PC gaming industry. They've never had any real guff about engine recreations. They've only relied on Sony/Nintendo to fight copyright infringements for them (Under the wing of game roms and pirating).

When you gut a wolf and put his coat on a sheep, you aren't applying the wolfs carnivorous nature onto the sheep, but simply giving the sheep a piece of mind from lesser wolfs. Eidos is no longer Eidos.

(And again, Eidos was never really all that legally endowed in Piracy and possible copyright hassles, as they basically were financially fucked for most of the 00's, thanks to John Romero)

Renzatic on 10/8/2011 at 20:13

There's really no way to know how they'd really respond. All I know is that they're not responding, so we should take that as, well, not necessarily a yes, but not exactly a no, either. In that situation, I'd just go ahead and release a little patch or two and see what happens.

The worst scenario is a C&D. They can't get anyone on piracy specifically, and there aren't any damages being directly dealt to the company. They probably won't be able to justify (to themselves, mind) taking it all the way to court. It's ultimately a copywrite violation, but a weird one that sorta exists in a grey limbo because it's practically victimless. Basically, you gotta think of it as a super glorified fan patch. Just don't disable the CD check so they won't DMCA you, about the worst you'll probably see is a "....well, take down the files and don't make anymore".

At least then we'll know where they stand.

New Horizon on 10/8/2011 at 20:38

If a differential patch were released by the community to offer some 'fixes' I don't see how that would be a problem. Sure, they're altering the original exe...but whatever, it's not distributing any assets.

Renzatic on 10/8/2011 at 21:05

Well, you'll be using copywrited material to produce the .exe file, which makes it a little weirder than usual to justify. Still, you won't be distributing the source directly, and, like you said, won't be offering any copywrited assets on the side. From a legal standpoint, I can't imagine it being much different than all those VTM: Bloodlines fanpatches that come packaged with an altered .exe files.

So I guess the short and sweet of it is:

Distribute the source code? That's a large body of copywrited, proprietary work you'll be giving away without permission. Eidos could legally stomp a mudhole in anyone's ass who tries to do so.

Distribute patches made from the source code? More a grey area. As long as you don't try to circumvent any security (due to the aforementioned DMCA clause), the worst Eidos can do is tell you to stop. It's still officially copywrited, and thus still officially Eidos' property. But as long as you stop when they tell you to, nothing much will come of it.

So the real question is, who's ballsy enough to get the source and do something with it?

Also, we need a lawyer in here ASAP, cuz I need someone to check and see if I actually know what I'm talking about here.

jtr7 on 11/8/2011 at 00:02

Yeah, let's not piss them off way too much while we complain about how they don't respect us, please. :erm:

lost_soul on 11/8/2011 at 00:43

I highly doubt that anyone with the clearance required to release the source code is reading this thread.

jtr7 on 11/8/2011 at 00:52

As always, in matters like these, that opinion is highly irrelevant. Of course humans aren't reading through the Internet, but do a search and TTLG does come up high on the list. We have been in touch with Eidos-Montreal, and two representatives have accounts here. Humans aren't even needed for this. Companies have bots that do the trawling for them. I've had documents deleted from my Mediafire account for merely containing the term "source code" in them, flagged by a bot as possible copyright infringement on the recent movie "Source Code", which wasn't the case, but Mediafire complied immediately with the legal document handed to them, with all the files and accounts the poorly-written bot dug up.

You have no qualifications to back up your opinion and wish for free use of code we don't own. These debates go nowhere and are not helping anyone in the least. We are not isolated, nor insulated, but very public and in Eidos's eye should any one of them choose to log in and browse, let alone post, which they will be in the coming weeks, and keeping this thread on the front page of ThiefGen is also not helping, nor is smugness, entitlement, or flaunting authority, and any other impulses or confident doubts one or another here is always ready to shoot the Thief community in the foot over.

Square-Enix HAS shut down mods, and is notorious for their anti-modding stance. EM's community manager came here, before T4 was announced, and recruited, started threads, read threads, asked for input, and shared with the dev team. He's talked to us on this forum about the source code, talked to his supervisors, etc. This is real, dammit!

lost_soul on 11/8/2011 at 01:14

How is keeping it on the first page not helping? If anything, it sends the message that the fans are determined and aren't going to just forget about the whole thing.

Yandros on 11/8/2011 at 01:47

Because it would be better for the community right now if public discussion of it stopped. When people keep popping in here every few weeks blindly asking what's going on or what the status of things is, it's not having any impact whatsoever when it comes to convincing Eidos or Square to do anything, but it is constantly drawing attention to something that is best served by receiving none. Personally, I'd prefer if this entire thread got deleted, but then the wayback machine makes that rather pointless.

jtr7 on 11/8/2011 at 04:20

We are waiting for an official word.

When we get the official word, whatever it is, it will be announced, and some taffers will receive Private Messages.

In the meantime, there is not a single word we can say that will improve our lot--unless a sincere apology for our behavior means anything. Square-Enix has the right to never provide an official word.

If there's official news, we will spread it like wildfire.