jtr7 on 11/3/2010 at 03:18

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It's a fine game. It's bad Thief. It's Thief that got screwed by a lack of time and a lack of XBox memory. IT was supposed to be part three of a trilogy, ACT III of a single story, and it was too different on a fundamental level. Good things are buried under changes in presentation that weren't a step forward, but a step sideways or backward, for no reasonable reason. It's Thief that could've been the best of the three, but the devs needed another six months and another 10 MBs of RAM. It's Thief that was compromised to accommodate the inadequate XBox of that time. It's Thief that was screwed by a single programmer who gutted code from the engine and tools he wasn't expected to or supposed to, without anyone else knowing he did that, and his administrators, who took him off the job before he was finished making his overkill modifications, again, without anyone knowing the tools and engine were left with gaping holes in the code, which left us without rope arrows and swimmable water, and the level designers' original plans and the maps they had already begun to build had to be scrapped, redesigned, modified, re-imagined, etc., and so many months of development were lost, wasted, and then financial troubles and the fleeing of key members form the sinking ship guaranteed the developers would have no extension granted to put any polish on the game. The Keepers were made embarrassingly idiotic, not just corrupt. The Enforcers were a failure. The Kurshok were not supposed to be modified human models with swords. The hand-drawn maps were the devs' own sketches when they fully expected the art department to make Thiefy maps from them, including what were supposed to be architect's blueprints but just had clip-art added to the devs' sketches. The 1st-person camera is attached and slave to the jerkily animated body, making Garrett hard for many players to move with the freedom they are used to. There is no leaning anymore--the forward lean is gone, and the side-lean is really a side-step, which defeats the purpose of leaning instead of strafing. The story in general had lots of good ideas, but the delivery was botched, especially with the Pagans and too much of the Keeper stuff. The game is full of inexcusable failures and continuity errors, and should have capped off the the series proudly, and at least felt a part of the trilogy. The games make innumerable deviations in aesthetics rather than hearkening to the first two-thirds of the story when possible. Sadly, this is deemed "holding onto the past" rather than a call for continuity and respect, while acknowledging all the inevitable and unavoidable, and welcome changes. The proponents of TDS always admit the flaws the opponents do, but they deny it for a long time first, and make blatant silly excuses that hold no water, as opposed to giving in to impassioned bias and going too far like the other side of the argument.

If those things in the game don't bother you, then accept your simple views. Coming here and asking what the problem is after a hundred threads asking the same thing for over six years is a questionable act. You had your answers all along. You were aware of the complaints, and now you pretend not to know what they were. You know these threads don't end well, and few ever change their minds. It's not going to change now. It really comes down to the observant and the unobservant. The former has too much information in a bigger uglier picture and won't let anyone make blind assumptions, even if it means they are considered bitter fanboys, and the latter has too little information and revel in blissful ignorance but have just as much of a bad habit of asking what they prove they have no good excuse not knowing. If you don't understand the hate, then why ask what it's about? How can the discussion go anywhere constructive?


In simplest terms, TDS is the weakest of the trilogy, and its strengths do not make up for the flaws, unlike the older titles, where the strengths do outweigh the very real flaws. The worst part for me has been the blindness of the manfools and the revolution of ignorance and mediocrity propped up as the ultimate good, the ultimate in quality, and something for all potential greatness to aspire to be. It's also brought in a huge wave of fallacious thinking that more is always better, and more automatically means stronger and offers more freedom of choices. TDS brings out the worst on both sides.








Xorax, the devs stand by the loading zones, the loot glint, and the arrow trails. :(

Captain Spandex on 11/3/2010 at 10:48

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There's nothing wrong with it.
It's got pluses and minuses just like all the games. It's just different. Ion Storm tried new things. I like that.

Sure, you lose the open areas. But you gain dynamic shadows that you can use as cover.
You lose the big broadsword. You gain a much more Thiefy dagger.
You lose the more detailed textures. You gain dynamic lighting on the existing textures.
You lose the effectiveness of the lean. You gain an additional perspective.
You lose rope arrows. You gain a much more realistic lockpicking mechanic with the ability to pick by 'feel' while looking to the side for signs of danger.

I could go on. It's an excellent game. My second favorite after Thief II. Glad you liked it, OP.

Fragony on 11/3/2010 at 11:09

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It didn't draw me in, Thief was an experience of it's own. I could go on about how the gameplay was a step back, but as a whole it felt forced and uninspired, and clueless of what made Thief so great: brilliant design.

Let's make a Thief game!

medieval setting *check*
guards *check*
uh, let's add a few zombies fans expect it...

But they forgot the genius, all it did was remind me of how much I love it's older brothers. I still think they kinda screwed up Thief 2 as well but that is just preference, I liked the sinister weirdness of the first better. Still my second favorite game ever.

donderosa on 11/3/2010 at 15:42

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i've read some valid points here as to why this game is flawed and i have to agree with many of them. but the thing is, thief 3 is still enjoyable. for some it may not be a worthy successor to the previous games and maybe this is the only reason why people who played and loved thief 1 and 2 consider tds a completely failed attempt. if my understanding of your post is correct, you suggest that my overall positive impression is based on self deception because ..well, i'm not sharing the same adoration for the thief series that you might have, i guess. let me throw the ball back to you, saying that your bad impression is fueled by a rediculous high level of expectations and a very specific and subjective concept of how thief should have been done in the first place. thats why every little flaw and everything that deviated from the nostalgic thief formula grew into a huge gamebreaker, making the overall experience worse than it had to be.

i'm not saying your opninion is wrong. i can't relate to your point of view, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's utter nonsense. an attitude you unfortunately don't seem to share. thats why not my lack of understanding the "hate" will prevent constructive discussion, but reproaches and antipathy will.

in fact, the reason why i'm asking about tds is not only why this game is the unloved stepchild in the series, but why is there so little fm's out there utilizing possibilities the new engine might have. if a mod like rocksbourg can make thief 2 look like tds, then why not use the new editor to make tds look like crysis and feel like thief 2, if you know what i mean :cheeky: is it simply because of technical boundaries or is it something else?
it's not my intention to start heated flamewars and i hope, this can be avoided. i'm just keen to see more tds fm's and can't but wonder why no one else seems to be.

Kurshok_Warrior on 11/3/2010 at 16:34

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TDS is actually the best of the three. Most people that hate it are just meganerds that were pissed that it wouldn't run on their rig at the time so turned against it as a kneejerk reaction lol.