Illuminatus on 12/3/2010 at 03:39
Even compared to some weaker old levels like Thieves' Guild, TDS is embarrassingly linear. Buildings rarely have multiple entrances, open-ended approaches usually consist of choosing between an identical hallway A or hallway B, maps are too small to allow innovative routes, etc. There's a reason people complain so much about the missing rope arrows and swimmable water: these weren't just gimmicks that could be removed, they were an integral part of the non-linear gameplay. Without them, the game's 3d nature takes a huge blow: there's no longer any way to get above or below a level's "main stage". Next to water arrows, Thief's most innovative tool (its "gravity gun") was easily the rope arrow, since it allowed players to interact creatively with a mission's layout and negotiate obstacles in an emergent fashion. Climbing gloves can't even be suggested as a viable substitute: they're simply the equivalent of wide invisible ladders.
Muzman on 12/3/2010 at 08:13
Quote Posted by Captain Spandex
DS had tiny environments, yes. But more importantly, they retained the ability to complete objectives via different approaches. That's much more central to the 'Thief Experience' than the actual size of the levels, I think.
I wouldn't say that exacty. Yes there can be smaller Thief levels and they can be ok, but DS levels generally lacked the complexity and realism of space that the previous games had. That contributes a lot to the atmosphere and it was something few other games had done (particularly at the time). It is no accident though that the best TDS levels are generally the biggest; Cradle and Museum are the most Thiefy levels because of their size and attention to space (Cradle isn't even all that Thiefy really, but its quality in these areas fools you to an extent)
The difference is evident in levels that people don't always like or think belong in any of the games: No one can really argue that the breadth and sense of adventure in The Lost City is recaptured in the Kurshock "city".
That and the generally very simplistic story telling, like others mention, are what bug me. In TDS theres so little world building compared to the first two. There's almost no readables that aren't directly on point in the most obvious way, regarding the mission or some loot. There's much fewer of them generally as well. Previously you'd find all sorts of stuff about the comings and goings of life in this place. You'd get a feeling lives you were intruding on in a much better way. Even the notes that tell you something important were written more as though they weren't written to tell the player something, but like an actual note someone wrote. You had to tease out the clues for yourself.
anyway
Quote Posted by donderosa
so why is the number of thief 3 fm's that low? is the overall opinion about the quality of this game really that bad? or is it because of a difficult to use editor, making it much harder to create levels and such? i wonder what reasons everyone else might have for preferring thief 2.
No one's said yet, but from memory everyone was falling all over themselves to get a hold of the editor and make bigger maps and even 'fix' the old ones. But there's been lots of obstacles apparently. I don't really know much more about it than that.
Judith on 12/3/2010 at 15:40
Quote:
So why is the number of thief 3 fm's that low? is the overall opinion about the quality of this game really that bad? or is it because of a difficult to use editor, making it much harder to create levels and such? i wonder what reasons everyone else might have for preferring thief 2.
At the time of release the editor had huge system requirements to work properly, AFAIK. Also you needed 3dsmax 5.1 to create your own models/meshes and textures/materials - no other external modeling application would work. The editor layout itself is pretty user-friendly, since it's Unreal 2.x, but you have to remember that it's some other engine "hacked into" UE 2 editor interface. Also, the method of building is totally different from what Dromeders have been used to. Basically, you have to carve out simple BSP-based spaces and fill them with static meshes. Since the max 5.1 was too expensive (now virtually inaccessible, since Discreet is long gone), the only option was to use developers' assets, which is a serious limit for the designers. This plus lack of swimmable water and rope arrows (there hasn't been a mission yet with some clever climbing gloves design in mind) discouraged a lot of people, who returned to Dromed instead.
You can have larger maps, much better textures, more complicated models and more lights per scene than in the original missions (you can unlock devs' self-imposed limits), but the possibilities remain largely unexplored, because of the problems above.
Avalon on 12/3/2010 at 15:56
Quote Posted by Judith
This plus lack of swimmable water and rope arrows (there hasn't been a mission yet with some clever climbing gloves design in mind) discouraged a lot of people, who returned to Dromed instead.
I always boggled at how hard we had to fight to get those tools out, that ISA had made no attempt at all to make a working toolset that the fan community could use independently. Brilliant decisions, when Thief 3 owed its livelihood to editing communities that had been pumping out fan missions for the previous games for years.
ZylonBane on 12/3/2010 at 16:54
Quote Posted by Avalon
I always boggled at how hard we had to fight to get those tools out, that ISA had made no attempt at all to make a working toolset that the fan community could use independently. Brilliant decisions, when Thief 3 owed its livelihood to editing communities that had been pumping out fan missions for the previous games for years.
The problem isn't the
tools per se. The problem is that the engine itself was designed in a way that's almost intentionally hostile to modding. Which, agreed, was astoundingly myopic of the dev team.
Beleg Cúthalion on 12/3/2010 at 21:09
Now what's your image of proper engine or game (in general) modding? Everytime I hear about how unmoddable TDS is I think of this huge ini tweak list, the high-res textures and the MP... and when I think about T3Ed there's merely the swimmable water which is the only serious sort of engine-based flaw I know of right now. We've found a lot of pretty things you can do with it, just because we don't have the manpower to show them off frequently doesn't mean they don't exist. And just the lack of some modding opportunity among many doesn't render it hostile to modding.
ZylonBane on 12/3/2010 at 21:56
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Now what's your image of proper engine or game (in general) modding?
The Dark Engine.
Beleg Cúthalion on 12/3/2010 at 22:54
For a moment I had expected an answer.
New Horizon on 12/3/2010 at 22:56
Quote Posted by Kurshok_Warrior
TDS is actually the best of the three. Most people that hate it are just meganerds that were pissed that it wouldn't run on their rig at the time so turned against it as a kneejerk reaction lol.
Wrong.
jtr7 on 12/3/2010 at 22:59
Wow, yeah, that's incredibly wrong and weak. If you gotta make crap up, and resort to profoundly ignorant taunts, you have no argument. You really ought to rethink your approach and try speaking facts and truth for once.
Having no knowledge of the very things TDS got wrong, and confusing graphics or newness for greatness, and not even knowing any of the contradictions and continuity errors or technical issues, you just made an ass of yourself and have reinforced the stereotype of a shallow, unobservant, celebrator of mediocrity, uncomprehending TDS-fan. And you don't even know that you are praising an old game while you accuse others.
I'm so glad I know people who are your opposite in character and class who happen to like TDS and can discuss it meaningfully, since there are hundreds like you that are scarily dense that seem to make up the majority.
