lost_soul on 15/3/2010 at 06:36
... and don't forget that with a console, what you buy is what you get. There are no fan missions or ambitious projects like T2x, The Dark Mod, or The Nameless Mod for consoles. I used to justify the cost of a console before they began launching at $500+. One can scrape together a decent gaming rig for not much more.
Kurshok_Warrior on 15/3/2010 at 15:19
Quote Posted by Captain Spandex
Just a quick run-down of the first two missions in both games:
Bafford's Mansion (TDP) -
2 entrances and exits
The Castle (TDS) -
3 entrances and exits
Cragscleft Prison (TDP) -
2 entrances
St. Edgar's Cathedral (TDS) -
2 entrances
LOL owned.
Quote Posted by Jarvis
I think it has a whole lot more to do with the scope of the missions than just the number of entrances and exits.
It does now that Captain just pwned you and you're having to change your argument lol.
New Horizon on 15/3/2010 at 16:05
Quote Posted by Kurshok_Warrior
It does now that Captain just pwned you and you're having to change your argument lol.
So pointing out that a game made in 2004 has the same number of entrances and exits as a game made in 1998 is pwning? Hardly. He's comparing the 'first' game...to the 'third' game. In the end, he mentions how Thief 2 had far more entrances and exits than either game. A T2 to TDS comparison would be far more accurate.
Serpentine on 15/3/2010 at 16:17
Because there's something that happens when you change game systems and mechanics, most often seen when a developer changes engines - but not always the case.
When I buy an apple I expect something that looks and tastes like an apple, if you hand me back a pear it might have a similar texture, shape doesn't matter too much and maybe it will go down well... but I'll still be pretty disappointed about being sold something that didn't live up to what I thought I would be getting.
The CnC game in beta atm has the same issue, while its still an RTS its got so many changes to systems that it has made almost all of the testers rage about how bad it is. If they didnt sell it as CnC they wouldn't have the expectation and it would most likely be a completely different reaction.
The use of old names to sell copies of something that has been tarted up to look and feel completely different works in very few cases, while it might expand playerbase it will always risk the existing fans, so reusing the name and ideals that come with it is often without cause.
If it was de-thiefed and sold as a new IP with the same marketing - the same new fans would like it and the old fans would see it as a knock off but nothing worth despising.
tl;dr - an 'ok' game that tries to break the mold using an existing name risks old fans, while new players might find it good because they come in without expectations(and rose tinted nostalgia glasses ;)).
ZylonBane on 15/3/2010 at 16:51
Quote Posted by Serpentine
tl;dr - an 'ok' game that tries to break the mold using an existing name risks old fans, while new players might find it good because they come in without expectations(and rose tinted nostalgia glasses ;)).
I'd say Invisible War would be a better example of this than Deadly Shadows.
Serpentine on 15/3/2010 at 17:00
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
I'd say Invisible War would be a better example of this than Deadly Shadows.
Without a doubt, one of the worst cases and a complete other ballpark compared to TDS which was fairly minor. I should have mentioned more of the "removing features and gameplay devices completely in later versions without reason"(i.e there are some items which were underused and removed but you as a fan could see why, however things like rope arrows just leave you... ), which was where TDS comes in more, while DE2 was more of a re-engineering blunder.
Jarvis on 15/3/2010 at 23:12
Quote Posted by Kurshok_Warrior
LOL owned.
It does now that Captain just pwned you and you're having to change your argument lol.
If you're convinced by that sort of thing, then you're welcome.
Kurshok_Warrior on 16/3/2010 at 12:29
Quote Posted by Jarvis
If you're convinced by that sort of thing, then you're welcome.
The facts don't convince you? Unsurprising.
Beleg Cúthalion on 16/3/2010 at 12:44
Don't take things too serious, Kurshok warrior. Usually people tend to say more about what they don't like than about what they like, which is IMHO one of the reasons for the "bad TDS talk" outweighing the good. Plus, I think many are afraid at the back of their head that making one's sympathy towards TDS public without recalling its flaws at the same time encourages the Big Bad Industry to keep the lower quality.
Ironpants on 16/3/2010 at 20:27
Quote Posted by Jarvis
I still can't stand lines like "Hey Garrett, how's the thieving?!". What about the voices of big bertha and so on. There are literally black market shops? They don't have a front business? They are marked by a recognizable symbol that is out in the open? They consistently toss around the names of their clientele?
Did you listen to the way the nobles talked? They all had the same "snoodiness" in their voice. It's as if the voice director said "think saturday morning cartoon quality here people. Think Gilligan's Island. You know, the millionaire and his wife? ...and action!"
The point I'm making here is that TDS treats you like an idiot. It insults your good taste and intelligence. Compare the presentation of TDS to say the original Deus Ex. Deus Ex is what an intelligent game looks like when you have to interact with many NPCs. The dialog is sharp and the voice acting believable. The world was consistent and made sense.
...
There's no accounting for taste. If you like that sort of thing, then more power to you. I hold though that we should demand higher quality in our games.
Exactly! When the developer's idea of pagan speech is to randomly insert "bes" into what is the literary equivalent of a second grader's sentence it's clear that they just didn't give a shit, so why should I?
Language plays a huge role in making Thief what it is - creating an intelligent and immersive universe. Deadly Shadows somehow manages to completely avoid linguistic coherence with the established titles, by not taking any of it seriously. It's an insult to the passionate work of Terri Brosius, et al. - and to the intelligence of the players.
In particular the original pagan dialect conveys a very effective dark whimsy - and is so butchered in DS it can't even be accurately described as caricature. I'm reminded of the briefing quote from The Sword, one of my favorites:
"Builds your roofs of dead wood. Builds your walls of dead stone. Builds your dreams of dead thoughts. Comes crying laughing singing back to life, takes what you steal, and pulls the skins from your dead bones shrieking."
-Clay tablet in an abandoned Trickster temple
