So... World of Dungeons & Dragonborn, anyone? - by Koki
Koki on 7/6/2008 at 09:57
4E hit the fan yesterday and anyone who doesn't have a life had enough time to look into it already.
A lot of changes were made, and while I had great hopes for it, it's just bad. The MMORPG influences are so blatant it's almost unreal. Classes are clearly divided into tanks(complete with skills of aggro control), AoE and DPS - they even give you example builds for each. Core races have been changed not only to fit in better with the new class division but also to fit in better with the general audience: Calling Dragonborns a race for powerplaying 12-year-olds and Tieflings a race for emo 15-year-olds is obviously biased and unfair. So is calling Eladrin more streamlined, Tolkien-esque version of the Elves.
The new skill system, with Fighters able to do something more than just roll to hit and to damage and casting classes being able to cast without memorizing, is indeed in, and it does work - if you're fitting into one of the builds the authors proposed you, that is. Chances of finding a 'middle ground' or 'third way' are zero. Well, they promised that there were multiple ways of playing each class - and that includes two.
And while I probably shouldn't talk about realism in a fantasy role-playing game, I will. Healing Surges, Second Winds - while they obviously allow players to go longer without resting(My shit-tinted glasses tell me it's another streamline thing), they don't make any sense whatseover.
The most interesting thing in 4E is how backward-influenced it is. D&D infuenced countless RPGs, which eventually evolved into MMORPGs. And now the same MMORPGs influence the D&D. How cool is that? Well if you just want to play 4E, not very.
icemann on 7/6/2008 at 14:28
I definately dont like the sound of that at all. I love mmo`s in their own right, but proper d&d had its own merits as well.
Up until mmo`s you needed each and every character to be their own "tank" in some ways since attacks were generally randomly allocated. Or atleast put more thought into the actual placement of characters. With the melee characters at the front and the ranged characters at the back. A common old style rpg tactic.
If you use real life as an example, lets say a 5 on 5 fight. Each person would tend to target one specific person from the get go, rather than all 5 all going for the same person. The whole tanking situation just wouldn`t work in real life. But meh its a game I know.
Tonamel on 7/6/2008 at 19:18
I read through the Player's Handbook yesterday, and I don't really think it's that bad. Maybe it's because I haven't played DnD for over a decade, so I'm not really wedded to any of the earlier systems.
It looks like everybody has interesting stuff to do all the time now, which is nice. I'm particularly interested in the warlord's ability to move pieces when he attacks them. Sounds like it could make combat a bit more tactical than you'd find in an MMO.
But yeah, it does wear its MMO influences on its sleeve, but I'm going to reserve judgment on that until I've actually played it, because I think the game style is different enough that it's not going to feel like an MMO.
They certainly do promote the idea of "play your class this way or this one other way," but they also encourage you to cross-pollinate the skills to find your own way of playing, so again, I'm going to have to see how it works in practice.
fett on 7/6/2008 at 20:23
Quote Posted by icemann
If you use real life as an example, lets say a 5 on 5 fight. Each person would tend to target one specific person from the get go, rather than all 5 all going for the same person. The whole tanking situation just wouldn`t work in real life.
This actually happened to me just last night and I
KICKED ASS.
ignatios on 7/6/2008 at 20:51
D&D 4th Edition takes its cues from MMOs in an area where they excel: combat systems with predictable chances of success (or not). The financial success of an MMO depends on (among other things) the ability to provide not just consistent difficulty, but a consistent escalation of that difficulty.
For tabletop players, that means the DM has guidelines to prepare an easy, medium, hard, or truly epic encounter, depending on the players and the campaign etc.
It's the same thing that DMs have always been doing, only now it's easier to get it right.
Jenesis on 8/6/2008 at 09:20
Some friends and I are part way through the pre-release adventure, and we're having an awesome time. Mostly they seem to have changed the more tedious aspects of 3.0/3.5, particularly things like the need to rest after practically every fight at first level becase the wizard has run out of spells. Although they largely fixed the issue of clerics having to prepare mostly healing spells in 3rd with the spontaneous conversion rules, things now work even better because the amount of healing is linked to the target rather than the healer, so the fighters and paladins can get the hit points they need more easily - which also means there's less resting because the cleric has run out of spells.*
The upshot of that was that at second level we managed, in our last session, to go through five fights in a row before we needed to rest. That wouldn't happen at that level in 3.5 unless you were fighting goblins one at a time or something. 4th Edition seems to just get rid of a lot of the faffing around that there used to be.
The other really nice thing, as Tonamel said, is that everyone has interesting things to do all the time. The only times you actually need to make a basic, no frills attack are after a charge and when taking an opportunity attack. I'm playing a Warlord, and the least interesting thing I can do is pin an enemy in place by granting someone adjacent to him an opportunity attack against him if he moves. Even better, when the situation is right, is Wolf Pack Tactics - 'I say, Richard, I'm about to attack this chap - would you care to shift five feet right now so we can flank him, even though it isn't your turn?' Most of the Warlord powers are about helping the rest of the party - allowing them to move a bit on my turn is a big feature, but I also grant initiative bonuses, and a damage bonus when people use action points (I'll come to them in a minute). My first daily power was the awesome 'Lead the Attack', which, if it hits, does triple damage and gives everyone +5 to hit that target for the rest of the encounter (if it doesn't hit, it gives a +1 bonus).
We've come across some pretty hilarious abilities, too:
- 'I roll 19 vs AC.'
- 'That's a miss. He turns invisible.'
That was pretty awesome when it happened - the guy I missed just disappeared, on my turn, much to our consternation and amusement.
Yeah, action points. You start with one every day, and you get another one every time you reach a milestone (generally after every other fight). You can only use one per encounter, and they grant you an extra standard action when you use them. They can help you break out of desperate situations (the cleric can't reach you to heal you - oh, wait, he can!) or help you take down a boss quickly. (When something is down to half hitpoints, it is 'Bloodied', and some things become more dangerous when they get to that point, so sometimes you need to take things out quickly.)
On the apparently restricted classing front - I haven't read the rulebook yet, so I can't really comment on that properly.
What I can say, though, is this - from what I've seen of 4E so far by playing it, apart from renaming Attack of Op to Opportunity Attack, which doesn't roll off the tongue in the same way, I haven't seen anything I don't like.
*The new healing mechanics, as well as the fact that you can now drink potions as a minor action rather than the 3.5 standard-action-and-provokes-attack-of-op way, also makes me think that it's now much more plausible to build a party without a cleric.
Pitch on 8/6/2008 at 13:56
Quote Posted by fett
This actually happened to me just last night and I
KICKED ASS.
While simultaneously having sex with your wife, of course.
The Magpie on 9/6/2008 at 21:41
Quote Posted by Koki
And while I probably shouldn't talk about realism in a fantasy role-playing game, I will. Healing Surges, Second Winds - while they obviously allow players to go longer without resting(My shit-tinted glasses tell me it's another streamline thing), they don't make any sense whatseover.
If you can accept the abstracting traditional concepts of hit points and leveling up, the healing surges and second winds aren't that far removed from that line of thought. It has only been ridiculously unrealistic for thirty-five years (more counting Chainmail), but it will always be a marvellously effective way of representing a scalable character for use in a heroic game.
Quote:
The most interesting thing in 4E is how backward-influenced it is. D&D infuenced countless RPGs, which eventually evolved into MMORPGs. And now the same MMORPGs influence the D&D. How cool is that? Well if you just want to play 4E, not very.
You don't even consider the possibility that said influence might be
good for the game?
Now, people just having read the PH might have become overwhelmed. Tables and numbers and special actions lists. All combat focused. Even the magical items have hopped over from the DMG, for more table ogling. So what's left for the DM? A book filled with good, generous, work-saving techniques and indispensible tips for keeping the play interesting and flowing, that's what.
I mean, sure there are six-seven pages of sample traps, but there's also one page devoted to different types of problem players.
That's what I've missed in the core books since 1st Ed.
Role-playing and game
mastering tips for budding DMs. Are you dissatisfied with that? :)
--
Larris
Koki on 10/6/2008 at 07:03
Quote Posted by The Magpie
If you can accept the abstracting traditional concepts of hit points and leveling up, the healing surges and second winds aren't that far removed from that line of thought.
I guess HP have been around so long that you can't NOT accept them at this point, hovewer silly they might be. Besides, I notice the idea behind them(Either you're tougher or better at avoiding damage, or both) so they're not completely hopeless. Being able to instantly heal yourself completely after a fight... I don't think I'll ever be able to rationalize that.
Quote:
You don't even consider the possibility that said influence might be
good for the game?
Never.
The thing is, MMORPGs are not about roleplaying. They're all about powerplaying. After WoW, they're also about raiding and instances, which is pretty much party powerplaying. As role-playing goes, MMORPGs(As they are now) are absolutely worthless.
And while DnD always had the combat knack, I firmly believed it was also a proper roleplaying game, especially the 3E. So I hoped 4E will go even more in that direction. But it didn't, if anything, it went backwards to the early DnD days when it was still heavily infuenced by wargaming.
Quote:
Now, people just having read the PH might have become overwhelmed. Tables and numbers and special actions lists. All combat focused. Even the magical items have hopped over from the DMG, for more table ogling. So what's left for the DM?
Errr, what the DM has to do with that? Shouldn't you rather ask: "So what's left for the roleplaying?" after that thought sequence?
As you said, entire PH is about combat. The first thing they ask the players is not to imagine their character, but to pick a combat role which will be beneficial for the team. Actually creating a character comes last, and it's called "adding flavour". I didn't read them all since despite all WOTC's effort skills are quite uneasyreadeable, but I didn't see a single skill which could be actually used outside combat.
I admit that I only glanced over DMG, and yes, including the player types and pro-tips will help DMs, but I can't understand your argument how a good DM guide makes up a good roleplaying game. Yes, DM roleplays when presenting NPCs, but players roleplay(they should, anyway) much, much more and there's much, much more of them. And they shouldn't even read the DM guide in the first place. So how is a good DMG supposed to cure the empty tacticsness of PH?
Tonamel on 10/6/2008 at 10:24
Quote Posted by Koki
I didn't see a single skill which could be actually used outside combat.
There are a few, and they talk about using them in things like the horribly named "conversation encounters." The only other one I can think of offhand (gave the Player's Manual back to the DM, so I can't check) is Dungeoneering, which is basically street smarts, except instead of the street it's a dungeon (duh).
That said, I think the main goal with this first release was to get exactly what the players need to start playing in their hands, and that's mostly the rules of combat. Any actual roleplaying can, and some would say should, be improvisational. I do hope that they include tips on making good characters and such in future volumes, though.
