Boxsmith on 19/9/2013 at 14:53
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Sortakinda, but not really. The idea of eternal reward started with Christianity, and was picked up by Islam shortly thereafter. The ancient Jews believed in Sheol, which was described as a dreary non-place cut off from the light of God. Something more in line with the true Christian defintion of Hell.
I don't see how that contradicts my statement. In fact it's exactly what I wrote before I decided it could be put more succinctly. :P
Anyway, all I wanted to say was that historically, religion didn't exist to feed the ego. It was a way for people to secure their existence in a world far more hostile than ours.
Renzatic on 19/9/2013 at 15:04
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it wasn't even universal among Abrahamic religions. Sheol wasn't exactly a reward, because everyone went there, good or bad, and you exactly didn't continue to exist as you do now. You were a "shade", a being without emotion, personality, or strength. Like an echo or a shadow of who you once were.
The idea of "hey, you do good and stick around with us, you get to live forever in eternal bliss" came about with Christianity.
Nicker on 19/9/2013 at 17:37
The more simplistic notion of heaven and hell as rewards and punishments for the faithful or infidels, has become nearly universal today, through the popularity of the Abrahamic Three, but there is no doubt that the promise afterlife has been used as an enhancer of social norms for far longer than that.
While Hades was a sort of cold storage for unremarkable souls, heroes and villains could achieve a sort of immortality outside of it, if they attracted the particular attention of the gods. Valhalla rewarded the warrior code of the Vikings and Helheim (gee, what's so familiar about that name?) was an eternal place of punishment for those who did not die in battle. A place from which even gods could not escape.
The various reincarnation mythologies may rely on a place of permanent postmortem residence but they do say that the full force of your choices in life will not come to fruition until after you die.
The effect is the same, regardless of the particulars. Controlling people's beliefs about the afterlife allows you to control them in this life. Considering the present influence of the A3, this observation certainly holds true today in spades.
Boxsmith on 19/9/2013 at 21:35
Quote Posted by Nicker
While Hades was a sort of cold storage for unremarkable souls, heroes and villains could achieve a sort of immortality outside of it, if they attracted the particular attention of the gods.
Heroes were largely divine to start with, not just in death. Outstanding thinkers and teachers enjoyed the same status in the heavenly hierarchy, above ordinary people (divine inspiration and so forth). It wasn't a case of playing by a set of rules in exchange for eternal life. I don't know enough to comment on the nordic stuff, but this:
Quote Posted by Nicker
The effect is the same, regardless of the particulars. Controlling people's beliefs about the afterlife allows you to control them in this life. Considering the present influence of the A3, this observation certainly holds true today in spades.
isn't what I was contesting (although I do take issue with the way your wording suggests directed malicious intent). I just don't buy that religion necessarily feeds the ego, because that hasn't been the case in so many major religious traditions.
Pyrian on 19/9/2013 at 22:14
Quote Posted by Boxsmith
Outstanding thinkers and teachers enjoyed the same status in the heavenly hierarchy, above ordinary people (divine inspiration and so forth).
...
I just don't buy that religion necessarily feeds the ego, because that hasn't been the case in so many major religious traditions.
You're not making your point very well, then. :cheeky:
I mean, when you get down to the brass tacks of afterlife rewards and punishments, it's pretty spotty; more than a few religious traditions tend to take a more immediate view of such things. But religions that don't (A) elevate its teachers and followers over others and don't (B) tell you how you should behave or else? Citation needed.
Nicker on 19/9/2013 at 22:16
I am not suggesting malicious intent.
Malicious or at least manipulative intent is evident.
For example. Constantine was not a Christian. He was a pagan and remained so until his death when he converted to hedge his bets. He chose Christianity as his state religion for purely political and practical reasons. He saw that Christianity was on the ascendent and that it justified monarchical authority. Plus most of his soldiers were Christian.
The manipulation of the message for purposes of social control is quite plain to see in any religion, regardless of whatever additional and even beneficial functions it may provide. Religion is and always has been integral to social control. Either with the collusion of secular authority or, on rare occasions, in opposition to it.
Feudalism is justified by the purported natural order of the universe, with a celestial monarch and ranks of lesser beings (each greater than the ones below them, of course). Virtually every monarch and emperor in every culture in history was the representative of God(s) or their descendent by blood.
But the assumed celestial monarchy is itself just an artifact of our biological social instinct. It is a projection of our natural compulsion to form pecking orders. No gods need apply.
A religion may not feed the ego in the sense of providing celebrity. Our ego is not just about self aggrandisement. It is an essential mental and emotional function to enhance our personal and species survival. A religion doesn't have to stroke our egos, only assuage its fears.
Religion also feeds our need to be part of a social group. You may not be a king but you are going to the same heaven as the king, where you will be his equal under an infinitely greater king.
demagogue on 20/9/2013 at 06:56
Just popping in to point out that an afterlife as a reward for virtue started with Zoroastrianism, and got picked up by some strands of Judaism then into Christianity. (There was also the monotheist pharoh, forget his name now, who had some varient of it IIRC.)
