Some issues regarding TTLG as a whole. - by kamyk
Muzman on 11/3/2010 at 15:54
Quote Posted by jtr7
Hahahaha! That's because those who've been flamed a lot are either avoiding the place or ignoring the flamers or bringing the tone down to where it's still bitchy but not cooking anyone. You know, adaptation.
Why is this funny? Apart from the first point it sounds pretty good.
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There are several CommChat regulars that really participate in Thief topics, enjoyably, and at least productively. And there are those who do come in, don't mesh, and act their same selves that drove many taffers away.
Also, a lot of people are being accused of bitterly holding onto the past, when
something else is happening instead, so that always grinds things to a halt and perpetuates myths and shallowness.
Stories about people being driven away must be backed up now. New rule. With any and all citations possible
I sound like captious combative old guy, but if we're going to do this we might as well do it right for a change. Constant hearsay and "everybody knows" sorts of statements that get thrown around only produce the part I've underlined in the quote above. So, let us declare: the airing of grievances
Begin!
jtr7 on 11/3/2010 at 22:28
It can't work one way. We're talking post-by-post misunderstanding. You want citations? Watch for posts where I say the responder misunderstood something I said. All you have to do is note where someone in any Thief forum tells someone to take their CommChat crap out of there, and watch for when someone in CommChat or GenGaming sneers at ThiefGen.
Don't ask for citations that you yourself can't provide, and call it proof of anything when it turns conversation into work. To sum up many things into one nebulous comment:
We're not interested in jumping through your hoops, passing your tests, making the grade, conforming to your culture, and that does work both ways.
Hiding behind the excuse of freedom of speech is laughable, too. There's only freedom for some speech, and those who aren't saying anything inflammatory at all are treated the worst, so they stop going. CommChat is not where all of us can go and connect about off-topic things while there are those there that compulsively post in threads that have no value to them but to target the posters instead of sticking to threads where they can relate.
Because it's not understood: CommChat has great people, it has nice people, it has funny people, and it has the handful of people who don't know when to put the spitwad-shooter down or not even work up the saliva to begin with. It only takes one guy on the room to stink up the place, and there's a handful of them, with others cheering them on and excusing their behavior for giving them a chuckle. I use schoolroom imagery to describe them because it truly hearkens back to that time, where the teachers would side with the instigators if the people they antagonized tired at all to defend themselves while trying not to stoop to their base level.
By the way, anyone who gets off on people abusing others, and thinks a person is cool because they have wit and cleverness in their attacks on the naive, is an asshole. Freedom of speech only applies to the people who have nothing nice to say, but the people who have something entirely benign are berated and unwelcome. Weeding people out by seeing who can or will put up with abuse and who can cast aside their niceness and become their lower selves to engage the assholes is base. The world has plenty of that and worse, and not everyone comes to TTLG to interact is here to get more of what they can get locally. Those guys are capable of making great posts that are classic and quotable, but that doesn't excuse the way they treat people who only post their out of fear of getting in trouble for not following the forum guidelines, but then they often get worse treatment anyway. You want citations for unconstructive reasons. You wouldn't need them if you just observed and gave a damn. You wouldn't need them if you saw the pattern of people who aren't here to play with the rowdy bunch.
I know a lot of jerks think that the way to toughen someone up is to beat on them, but they never consider that maybe someone is weak because they've been beaten and are only going to get damaged by another blow. If they think they're doing anyone a favor, besides entertainment for the assholes, they really need to know when to stop and let someone be. As was observed, this isn't High School--but it's not without bullies and wimps and people here of the age where bullies and wimps and insecurity from both sides are very real. Call it survival of the fittest, natural selection, or clever assholes stomping on those who don't have a fighting bone in them.
I laughed, Muz, because the question was absurd and the answer obvious. I don't believe for a second you don't understand mirthless laughter. I also believe you understand how drama and pain are often considered worthy of mockery and a source of entertainment until actual death is involved.
I'll make it simple for the clever and intelligent who I expect to act thick as a result:
A lot more people than you realize do not thrive in the social conditions you do. Many of those people find the environment you thrive in toxic. Attitude, outlook, and determination aren't enough to strengthen them, and frankly, when given a choice between striving against you or thriving in their own way, they will go where they can be themselves.
SubJeff on 11/3/2010 at 23:12
Quote Posted by jtr7
Don't ask for citations that you yourself can't provide, and call it proof of anything when it turns conversation into work.
I'd ask to you to explain how you can provide evidence of something that hasn't happened but I don't expect a reply because you can't give one.
Screw it.
How can he provide citations of people who HAVEN'T quit? Oh, here's how. Me, Scots, Stitch, RBJ, Matthew, Namdrol, fett, ZylonBane and on and on.
Now name one person who has quit for the reasons you state.
Scots Taffer on 11/3/2010 at 23:19
Hypothesis: no one can post in CommChat unless they are part of a certain clique.
Proof: non-existent.
Hypothesis: anyone can post about pretty much anything in CommChat provided they do so intelligently and with appropriate content to generate discussion.
Proof: everyfuckingwhere.
Sorry, jtr7, but the burden of proof is on you when you continue to put forward baseless negativity directed at an entire spread of the community.
Post-script: wonder how long this thread lasts now that it's not exclusively ThiefGen members commenting.
Independent Thief on 11/3/2010 at 23:22
Quote Posted by jtr7
By the way, anyone who gets off on people abusing others, and thinks a person is cool because they have wit and cleverness in their attacks on the naive, is an asshole. Freedom of speech only applies to the people who have nothing nice to say, but the people who have something entirely benign are berated and unwelcome. Weeding people out by seeing who can or will put up with abuse and who can cast aside their niceness and become their lower selves to engage the assholes is base. The world has plenty of that and worse, and not everyone comes to TTLG to interact is here to get more of what they can get locally. Those guys are capable of making great posts that are classic and quotable, but that doesn't excuse the way they treat people who only post their out of fear of getting in trouble for not following the forum guidelines, but then they often get worse treatment anyway. You want citations for unconstructive reasons. You wouldn't need them if you just observed and gave a damn. You wouldn't need them if you saw the pattern of people who aren't here to play with the rowdy bunch.
I know a lot of jerks think that the way to toughen someone up is to beat on them, but they never consider that maybe someone is weak because they've been beaten and are only going to get damaged by another blow. If they think they're doing anyone a favor, besides entertainment for the assholes, they really need to know when to stop and let someone be. As was observed, this isn't High School--but it's not without bullies and wimps and people here of the age where bullies and wimps and insecurity from both sides are very real. Call it survival of the fittest, natural selection, or clever assholes stomping on those who don't have a fighting bone in them.
I laughed, Muz, because the question was absurd and the answer obvious. I don't believe for a second you don't understand mirthless laughter. I also believe you understand how drama and pain are often considered worthy of mockery and a source of entertainment until actual death is involved.
I'll make it simple for the clever and intelligent who I expect to act thick as a result:
A lot more people than you realize do not thrive in the social conditions you do. Many of those people find the environment you thrive in toxic. Attitude, outlook, and determination isn't enough to strengthen them, and frankly, when given a choice between striving against you or thriving in their own way, they will go where they can be themselves.
:thumb:
Queue on 11/3/2010 at 23:45
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Hypothesis: no one can post in CommChat unless they are part of a certain clique.
I can honestly say, I'm not part of any clique--I hold you all in equal and unfettered disdain.
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Post-script: wonder how long this thread lasts now that it's
not exclusively ThiefGen members commenting.
Let me give it a whirl.... *ahem* PENIS!
Are we still here?
Seriously guys, we're all TTLG members. Who cares where you hang out the most, one doesn't make you a geek, one doesn't make you cool. In the end, we all suck because we relegate ourselves to posting on a freakin' (aren't you proud of me for not saying "the naughty word"?) webite. We're all losers!
And this is Kolya's fault! Let's get him.
Xenith on 11/3/2010 at 23:51
I agree, the queen wants blood already.
jtr7 on 12/3/2010 at 00:17
But seriously. We're not interested in jumping through hoops to gain acceptance. But see, I'm already repeating myself.
theBlackman on 12/3/2010 at 00:29
I think this entire thread is one of the best laughs I've had in months.
Muzman on 12/3/2010 at 00:32
Quote Posted by jtr7
stuff...
O...K then. I'm glad Night Ranger understand you 'cause mostly I haven't a clue what you're ranting about. Which is kinda why I was hoping you'd show me, but anyway....
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It can't work one way. We're talking post-by-post misunderstanding.
I don't know what this means.
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You want citations? Watch for posts where I say the responder misunderstood something I said. All you have to do is note where someone in any Thief forum tells someone to take their CommChat crap out of there, and watch for when someone in CommChat or GenGaming sneers at ThiefGen.
And what usually happens when you think someone misunderstands you? Are you talking about here or in commchat? Has this happened recently?
What happens when someone in any Thief forum tells someone to take their CommChat crap out of there? Who says this anyway? Mods? Does this happen a lot?
What is someone in CommChat or GenGaming sneering at ThiefGen supposed to signify? Could it not have been a joke? Even if it weren't what does it matter? It would help if there was a particular incident to talk about.
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Don't ask for citations that you yourself can't provide, and call it proof of anything when it turns conversation into
work. To sum up many things into one nebulous comment:
We're not interested in jumping through your hoops, passing your tests, making the grade, conforming to your culture, and that does work both ways.
Well, nebulous is certainly the word. I don't know what any of this means. You made the statement. I'm asking you to tell us about the particular incidents you're talking about. That's traditional I would have thought. I can't provide the citations for the incidents that you are talking about. How on earth would I do that? There's no 'members driven away from ttlg' category in the search engine that I'm aware of.
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Hiding behind the excuse of freedom of speech is laughable, too. There's only freedom for some speech, and those who aren't saying anything inflammatory at all are treated the worst, so they stop going. CommChat is not where all of us can go and connect about off-topic things while there are those there that compulsively post in threads that have no value to them but to target the posters instead of sticking to threads where they can relate.
I have no idea what prompted this or what it is in reference to.
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-big section of I-don't-know-what-exactly omitted-
Those guys (presumably nasty comm chatters) are capable of making great posts that are classic and quotable, but that doesn't excuse the way they treat people who only post their out of fear of getting in trouble for not following the forum guidelines, but then they often get worse treatment anyway.
Who is they? When has this happened? (I can think of one or two occasions where something like that fits the description. I'll dig them up at some point. You might know lots. That is the point)
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You want citations for unconstructive reasons.
I resent that completely.
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You wouldn't need them if you just observed and gave a damn. You wouldn't need them if you saw the pattern of people who aren't here to play with the rowdy bunch.
I can't be everywhere at once. You sound like you've made all these observations. Perhaps you'd like to share them with us. It very true that I can't observe a pattern of people that isn't here.
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-more venty stuff I don't get-
I laughed, Muz, because the question was absurd and the answer obvious. I don't believe for a second you don't understand mirthless laughter. I also believe you understand how drama and pain are often considered worthy of mockery and a source of entertainment until actual death is involved.
I really don't know what you're talking about here. It sounds very specific but not at all related to the quote I was refering to. You said people who have been flamed are avoiding the place (which kinda implies that the only time flaming occurs is when "outsiders" enter, which isn't true. But anyway); ok that's potentially unfortunate depending on the incident. Then you said some are ignoring the flamers, which sounds like... a good idea and an easy way to deal with things. Then you said some (not clear on who) are "bringing the tone down to where it's still bitchy but not cooking anyone". Sounds more or less alright.
I guessed you were mocking what Subbjeff said (which was a lightly humerous comment in itself), but what you said didn't seem to rebuke the idea all that much.
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I'll make it simple for the clever and intelligent who I expect to act thick as a result:
A lot more people than you realize do not thrive in the social conditions you do. Many of those people find the environment you thrive in toxic. Attitude, outlook, and determination isn't enough to strengthen them, and frankly, when given a choice between striving against you or thriving in their own way, they will go where they can be themselves.
Again, I don't know what this means, what or who it refers to. It's like you're talking on some narrative you think is common knowledge, but it ain't common to me I'm afraid.
You want to defend innocent, delicate souls; fine. It would help if we knew who they were and when and how they were accosted, in your estimation. Even if it's you.
This has been nebulous for long enough. It's time to get precise about these things.
