Rekrul on 26/12/2008 at 02:47
I love to explore out of the way, forgotten places, so I loved the Bonehoard mission in TDP/TG. However there was one part of mission that somewhat spoiled it for me; The passageway to the surface from the top level.
To get to the burial chambers you have to descend into the catacombs, then make your way through the Burrick tunnels until you end up at this huge, isolated, underground crypt. The feeling of being deep underground and trapped in a place that few humans have seen in many years was great. Then you get to the top level and there's a passageway leading right out to the surface!
It makes the entire trip down seem pointless if he could have just entered the crypts that easily.
Also, it appears to introduce a continuity/logic problem with the architecture of the level. The passageway out is at floor level and leads straight out. This means that the entire top level of the crypt would basically have been above ground. I know that the crypt you exit through is set down in a pit, but I always figured that was just a way to avoid having to add anything else to the level. It really doesn't make sense that they would dig a pit just to put a crypt in, especially since it would tend to get flooded in bad weather.
Additionally, the section where the horn is located is several stories taller than the top level, meaning that it must form a tower on the sruface. I suppose it's perfectly possible that both the top level of the crypt and the tower where the horn is, exist as structures above ground. However, that would really only make sense if they wanted some form of access from the surface, but there's no evidence that there is. Also, if there were a surface doorway, wouldn't Garrett sneak in that way instead of taking the longer and more dangerous underground route?
It's occurred to me that even without the exit passageway, the top level of the crypts and the horn tower might still be higher than the original starting point (I've never used DromEd, so I've never seen the entire level at once), however without some point of reference, it's hard to tell so the illusion of being deep underground is preserved.
When I play this mission, I never use that exit. I always retrace my steps back to the start of the level.
I've always wondered how hard would it be for a novice to use DromEd to block off that passageway and then replace the original mission with the modified one.
jtr7 on 26/12/2008 at 03:14
What's wrong with the idea that it's set into a hill? It
seems to be outside The City, and after Cragscleft, it could be part of the same mountain range, or in the foothills of that range. And why take an easier entrance if you don't know it exists, but you know of the one that does? Garrett's following Felix's plans, and it seems right for him to go where Felix went before, where the map says the entrance is.:)
Here's a modified DromEd side view. I scrunched it horizontally a bit, and removed the geometry blocking some of the view.
Inline Image:
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7558/bonehoardfp4.gifWith all the hilly missions, the Horn doesn't have to be in a tower, but could be in yet another carved-out octagon.
Rekrul on 26/12/2008 at 03:56
Quote Posted by jtr7
What's wrong with the idea that it's set into a hill? It
seems to be outside The City, and after Cragscleft, it could be part of the same mountain range, or in the foothills of that range.
I guess I just don't care for the idea that this giant undergroup crypt is so close to the surface. With the exit passage removed, you could theorize that the crypts are under a mountain, but with the exit crypt being so close, it gives the impression that everything is under just a few feet of dirt.
Quote Posted by jtr7
And why take an easier entrance if you don't know it exists, but you know of the one that does? Garrett's following Felix's plans, and it seems right for him to go where Felix went before, where the map says the entrance is.:)
That kind of thing has always bothered me. Back in the 1980s, I remember watching a cheesey action movie on cable called Treasure of the Four Crowns. It's main claim to fame was that it was filmed in 3D. It starts off with the main character working his way through an abandoned castle. He avoids all kinds of traps, makes his way down through various corridors and finally ends up in the treasure room. Right as he grabs his prize, the whole place starts collapsing or going up in flames (I forget which). How does the hero escape? He jumps out a ground-level, stained glass window! :wot:
Quote Posted by jtr7
Here's a modified DromEd side view. I scrunched it horizontally a bit, and removed the geometry blocking some of the view.
Thanks for the pic. Now I can't help wondering why they chose to build their cemetary (the surface portion) is such a hilly area... :)
jtr7 on 26/12/2008 at 05:01
Pure speculation, along with a silly illustration:
Inline Image:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5981/bonehoardiq3.gifIt makes perfect sense that a tomb entrance begins at the surface, somewhere, and that Garrett has to exit the same way he came in. Tombs in hillsides are not uncommon. There's no telling for us what the geography between the two surface areas are like. The crater Garrett starts at may have had a well-worn path leading to it, especially since there's an old gate outside, and the other not. The Hammers quarry stone from the mountains around The City, and a lot of stone had to be removed to form the Bonehoard. It's the Builder's efficiency to do both at once. The Hammers likely got paid well while obtaining their stone. Besides, much of the Bonehoard is made by Hammers for Hammers, anyway. All the volcanism in the area makes cinder cones with cratered tops a possibility, with various kinds of rock available for various uses. Multiple surface breaks would allow air to circulate. Gophers always have two entrances, and burricks may be no exception. The burrick tunnels aren't all burrick-made, and are possibly part lava-tube, as well as adapted by the Hammers. And finally, most of the upper tombs don't have to be close to the surface, but looking at how it's constructed, there would have to be multiple extraction sites. The rooms that are closest to the surface are all brick and beam, or the tops of the octagonal chambers, or the huge mesmerized-burrick-infested cavern anyway. The difference in elevation of the starting point to the main floor of the octagonal chambers is roughly 33 meters. The difference in elevation of the starting point to the bottom of the watery chasm is roughly 62 meters.
Inline Image:
http://www.arts.kuleuven.be/egyptology/Henu/tomb_exterior.jpgRekrul on 27/12/2008 at 08:42
Quote Posted by jtr7
Pure speculation, along with a silly illustration:
Not silly, you did a good job of showing how the area might be laid out.
Quote Posted by jtr7
It makes perfect sense that a tomb entrance begins at the surface, somewhere, and that Garrett has to exit the same way he came in. Tombs in hillsides are not uncommon.
Ok that all makes sense. For myself, I still think it would give a better feeling of isolation if there were no quick and easy way out. It makes it seem even more risky if he not only has to avoid the various dangers on the way down, but also on the way back to the surface as well.
I wonder if the designers originally intended for players to retrace their steps? They could have easily made it a one-way trip by making you drop down somewhere that was too high to climb back up (at least not without stacking tricks). Maybe the exit was added when testers complained that they didn't want to go to that much trouble after completing all the goals.
I guess I'm just a completist. I was always disappointed that the Lost City mission didn't require you to go all the way back to the street where you start. :)
Thor on 27/12/2008 at 15:45
[Offtopic]
Quote Posted by Rekrul
I guess I'm just a completist. I was always disappointed that the Lost City mission didn't require you to go all the way back to the street where you start. :)
It didn't? Well, not to the street straightly, but the watery place was almost the same thing. Was there a shortcut? ><
[/Offtopic]
Melan on 27/12/2008 at 16:05
Nothing meaningful to contribute, except to say I lllove that second map. :thumb: Well done!
Nameless Voice on 28/12/2008 at 00:40
Quote Posted by Rekrul
I wonder if the designers originally intended for players to retrace their steps? They could have easily made it a one-way trip by making you drop down somewhere that was too high to climb back up (at least not without stacking tricks). Maybe the exit was added when testers complained that they didn't want to go to that much trouble after completing all the goals.
You
can retrace your steps and go back out the way you came in if you so choose. Both are valid exits, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.
jtr7 on 28/12/2008 at 01:00
Yeah, it's that whole philosophy of multiple paths to meet the objectives. \o/
Rekrul on 31/12/2008 at 23:53
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
You
can retrace your steps and go back out the way you came in if you so choose. Both are valid exits, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.
Yes, that's what I always do. I pretend that the other exit doesn't exist.
