bukary on 13/8/2014 at 18:06
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Russia has shown unbelievable restrain so far. [...] But for some reason, all western media have decided that Putin is the new Hitler. It pisses me off.
It's hard to believe that some people are as brainwashed as you are. :weird: Perhaps it's time to move to Putin's Russia and compare reality with propaganda. Good luck!
nemyax on 13/8/2014 at 18:30
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
In reality, nobody knows who shot down MH17.
I believe Obama and Putin have a pretty clear idea, whatever that is. Not so sure about Jen "I have no information for you" Psaki and Marie "Let me check" Harf.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
But for some reason, all western media have decided that Putin is the new Hitler.
Because that's the most convenient trope ever invented. Otherwise, people develop Hitler abstinence and start looking for facts.
Quote Posted by bukary
Perhaps it's time to move to Putin's Russia and compare reality with propaganda.
Care to share some reality experience?
Gryzemuis on 13/8/2014 at 20:40
Quote Posted by bukary
It's hard to believe that some people are as brainwashed as you are. :weird: Perhaps it's time to move to Putin's Russia and compare reality with propaganda. Good luck!
I'm not a supporter of Russia. I just don't like the unbiased propaganda that is done by western media. Nobody asks questions. Nobody tries to look at both sides. They just repeat what they are told to tell the public. It's unbelievable.
Have you seen the movies with destroyed houses and buildings in Eastern Ukraine ? 800-1200 Ukrainian civilians dead because of shelling. 730k Refugees on the run. The Kiev government is shelling the citizens that they insist they want to rule over. How can you bomb your own people ? Russia is sending help this day. Humanitarian help. Kiev has already said: "over my dead body that our citizens in Eastern Ukraine will receive those goods. Those convoys will not enter Ukraine". Now there might be a lot of things wrong with Russia. But a Kiev government that acts like they do now, can not be my friends.
And I still don't know who shot down 200 of my countrymen. And Kiev is not releasing information. In fact, they have been bombing the crashsite, to make sure no evidence will exist. Maybe the Russians are the bad guys now (they were our friends just 6 months ago). But that doesn't mean that Russia's enemy (Kiev) is suddenly my friend. The politics and the news is at KinderGarten level.
bukary on 14/8/2014 at 11:13
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
I'm not a supporter of Russia.
Yeah right.
Nemyax has his own agenda here... but you, Gryzemuis... you just seem to be brainwashed. It's because of that kind of reasoning that you present here Russia (a country that started World War II collaborating with Germany in 1939) was regarded as Europe saviour in 1944-45 and a country of freedom and liberty in 1917-1968 (or even later) by some Western "intellectualists".
I wish that you, Gryzeimus, could experience some of this Russia "humanitarian help" (like most of Central and Eastern European countries did in the last centuries and like Ukraine does now). Because it's hard to believe that some of the people living in Wester Europe still might be so in love with Putin's Russia and believe in its pure intentions.
Greetings from white-painted Kamaz to all Putin's supporters and the enemies of rotten Western World! Поздравления! :rolleyes:
[video=youtube;Tev8RK_mSyk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tev8RK_mSyk#t=17m50s[/video]
Start from 18 minute for some "interesting" conclusions. :rolleyes:
Gryzemuis on 15/8/2014 at 00:58
I don't speak Russian. So no idea what you wanna say with the linked YouTube movie.
Again, I am not in love with Russia. I am not a Putin supporter.
What I find hard to understand how we (my country, NL, and the EU) are suddenly friends with the Kiev government in Ukraine. You are in Poland. I know about pre-1990, I was born in the sixties. I understand you (and most Polish people) don't like Russia. I understand you don't like Putin. I understand people are afraid of Russia. I probably agree with you on many issues (killing of journalists, changing all tv-stations into propaganda, changing laws of presidency to allow for more than 8 years of Putin, Chechnya, gay-rights, etc, etc).
But this is what I don't like.
You have a political agenda against Russia.
Ukraine has a conflict with Russia.
Therefor you support Ukraine.
Ukraine bombs their own civilians. They kill 800-1200 people.
You don't mind the killing of those civilians, because you support Kiev, because you are against Russia.
And the EU seems to follow the exact same line of reasoning.
I find that disturbing.
I also find it weird how you keep saying I am a Russia lover. While my points are mainly about the Kiev government. It seems as if you must be a Russia lover, if you critize Kiev. That's the kind of "Those who are not with us, are against us" rhetoric of GW Bush. It polarizes issue. It simplifies complex issues. In my opinion, GW Bush's stance was almost fascist. I don't like being pushed in a corner like that. Because Russia collaborated with Germany 75 years ago, it is now suddenly no problem that Kiev kills 800-1200 of their own civilians ?
My point is not that the Russians are the good guys.
My point is that the Kiev government in the Ukraine are bad guys.
And the EU and the US are hypocrites.
In my country (NL) all press was unanimous that the separatists shot down the plane. One hour after the incident. It was reported almost as if Russian had shot down the plane themselves. And Putin had pushed the trigger. Very strong language. Everybody supported the Kiev government. We had to help our friends in Kiev. We had to put sanctions against Russia. And we had to get the bodies back. During two weeks, our recovery mission was completely ineffective. Most days they couldn't do anything. Because Kiev said they would help our recovery, but at the same time, intensified fighting in the area. They did not help at all. They actively frustrated our mission. After 2 weeks, we had a hearing in our parliament about the recovery mission. And suddenly a whole bunch of our parliament-members were not so happy with the Kiev-government anymore. From their words you could taste that they were done with Kiev. And in our news broadcasts, you slowly start to hear more stuff. That the Kiev guys are not so awesome, and maybe not our friends at all.
In the mean time, we still don't know who shot down MH17. The US is not showing us satellite-pictures. The UK is not letting us hear the blackbox recordings. And Kiev is holding back Air Traffic Control recordings. I don't have 100% strong principles that everybody is innocent until proven guilty. But I do wanna see some evidence myself first. I don't trust any government that says "trust us, we know".
The Russians might be the bad guys now.
But that doesn't mean the Kiev guys are the good guys.
Specter on 15/8/2014 at 02:56
Ukraine is not simply bombing its own citizens. That is a horrible oversimplification. Ukraine is fighting an ethnically different population that identifies and accepts help from a neighboring nation. Whether it is justified or not is not something I feel comfortable commenting on.
As for the airliner, unless you are willing to entertain the notion/conspiracy theory that someone from Western Ukraine intentionally shot the aircraft down to garner Western support (something it already had), then there are no circumstances where the aircraft could have been shot down by Western Ukraine. Were aircraft being engaged by anti-aircraft systems, they would be engaged as they approached/entered the airspace, not as they were leaving. Secondly, Western Ukraine has not been active with its anti-aircraft systems. No Russian aircraft on their side of the border have been engaged, and Western Ukraine controls the airspace over the Eastern half.
The reason that Russia was blamed so quickly is that the equipment came from them. Invariably. The separatists didn't just find them. Initially, the West thought that the separatists did not have access to such weaponry, and that it would have to be controlled by Russian forces. I think the line has blurred a bit, and that the separatists were in fact in control of the AA system, and it was a lack of experience that led to them mistakenly shooting down the airliner. I saw a report that Western Ukraine had a Su-25 near the airliner at the time; I would think it plausible (not necessarily likely) that Ukrainian pilots may have been hiding in airliner radar signatures.
Satellite imagery will not reveal who shot at the airliner. Both sides have the missile type. That is undisputed. Black box recordings and aircraft communications will not reveal the shooter either, as commercial airliners do not have any equipment that would identify that a missile was tracking them, let alone from where.
icemann on 15/8/2014 at 05:49
It's pretty damn clear that it was Russia that supplied the missile launcher that shot down the airliner + provided the training on how to use it. The fact that several other planes were shot down by that same missile launcher (all Ukrainian military from what I've read) in the same week further supports the case.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It's a duck.
Gryzemuis on 15/8/2014 at 10:42
Isn't it great, starting WWIII, just based on assumptions ?
I agree that it is most likely that separatists have shot down the plane. Likely. Assumption. But we don't know for sure. We have no clues, except assumptions. And even if we knew for sure, then imho there is zero, absolutely zero, justification for a government shelling and killing 800-1200 of their own civilians. Killing the 1000 separatists on top of those 800-1200 ? Maybe. But just civilians ? No.
And if the Russians had sent in a BUK-system with their own personnel, wouldn't that have resulted in *not* shooting down MH17 ? Professionals would have been able to distinguish a commercial airplane from an Ukrainian fighter plane. Whoever did it, they must have been amateurs. Maybe retired veterans from the Russian army, living in East Ukraine, and fighting for the Separatists ? Nobody knows.
Even if Separatists have shot down the plane, is that reason to blame Putin ? If it was a mistake, is that reason to put the current sanctions on Russia ? I see lots of shitty things happen in the world, and nobody is made responsible. No sanctions are applied on anyone. The US has supplied a zillion of weapons to Syria rebels. Those same rebels that are now ISIS and cause havoc in Syria and Northen Iraq. Are the US being held responsible for so many innocent deaths there ?
I think the western response on MH17 is way out of proportions. There must be another reason why the US has started their hate-campaign against Putin personally, and Russia. Last year was the Dutch-Russia friendship year. In February the whole world was guests at the Olympics. Our king and queen (
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02816/potd-putin-beer_2816840k.jpg) drank a beer with Putin.
I think there is a political reason behind it. Nothing to do with MH17. The BRICS bank, shale gas, the US wanting to lower economic interaction between the EU and Russia. I don't know. I do know that the US government has no problem using event X to go punish random person Y. Like how they (
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/5-hours-after-the-911-attacks-donald-rumsfeld-said-my-interest-is-to-hit-saddam-he-also-said-go-massive-sweep-it-all-up-things-related-and-not-and-at-2.html) used 911 to invade Iraq.
There are 40k nutcases in Texas that want Texas to separate from the US. A majority of voters seems to want to move Scotland to a federal state. Similar stuff. What if the UK and US governments started shelling the suburbs of Austin and San Antonio and Glasgow and Edinburgh ?
Winter is coming.
There is a risk Russia will not supply Europe with gas. Not so big a risk, because it is a main source of income for Russia. On the other hand, there is also the risk that Ukraine blocks gas from Russia to Europe. Or that Ukraine steals gas from the transit line. They can't pay their own bill. And they've done that before. And Russia might react and stop all gas. In both cases, Europe will have a huge shortage of gas. This week there are negotiations between the EU, Russia and Ukraine, only about gas. I can guarantee you that there isn't a single person in the EU that wouldn't mind if they couldn't warm their houses this winter, because of Ukraine. Or if gas prices would double. (As a reference, I pay 1500+ euros per year for gas to warm my house, and heat my water).
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident#Distortion_of_the_event) Oh no, the North-Vietnamese navy has shot at our boats. Quick. Let's start a Vietnam war !
icemann on 15/8/2014 at 15:09
At this point the vast majority of civilians have moved out of those areas. So the only people their shelling is Russians. But yes there would still be civilian deaths as what happens in 100% of all wars in history. Civilian deaths are a negative thing that occurs in all wars.
Secondly, their removing invaders to their country, as humankind has done for centuries. If someone invades you defend and kill to protect your country.
The only other alternative is to drop all their guns and join mother Russia. I know which one I'd be going with if the situation were to occur in my own country.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Isn't it great, starting WWIII, just based on assumptions ?
That is such an overreaction it's not funny. This even worst case scenario won't be the cause of World War 3. The world if anything is on the opposite side of the coin right now. Take America's reluctance to do the right thing and send in the marines to take down ISIS for example. Only after IMMENSE pressure they sent in planes to do air strikes. And that's all your going to see there, despite the fact that true evil is going on in Iraq. If their not going to do anything (beside air strikes) there, they wont in Ukraine. Their too focused on fixing their economies.
If Russia invaded Ukraine then maybe. But even then I strongly doubt it.
faetal on 15/8/2014 at 15:13
What's Steven Seagal doing about any of this?
