nemyax on 15/8/2014 at 15:23
Quote Posted by icemann
At this point the vast majority of civilians have moved out of those areas. So the only people their shelling is Russians.
I fail to see how the second (wrong) sentence follows from the first.
Specter on 15/8/2014 at 15:39
It's only wrong if talking about nationality. Ethnically, they are Russians.
nemyax on 15/8/2014 at 15:47
Does that make it OK for the Ukrainian military to shell ethnic-Russian Ukrainian citizens?
Specter on 15/8/2014 at 16:03
No more than its ok to shell anyone ever.
If there was no armed resistance, they would be occupying the area, not shelling it from the outside.
And you keep using the word citizens. I do not think that is correct. There are a great many fighters who hold Russian passports, including leadership elements.
nemyax on 15/8/2014 at 16:22
Quote Posted by Specter
There are a great many fighters who hold Russian passports, including leadership elements.
That ship has been sinking for some time now, and the actual Russians are taking off. Borodai and Girkin of Donetsk fame/infamy have both sodded off, and their replacements are Ukrainian. Khodakovsky was never Russian to begin with. That doesn't necessarily mean all of that shit will end any time soon, but maybe it won't be as bloody now.
Specter on 16/8/2014 at 03:05
You may be right. It could be that Russia no longer wants to tie itself to the fate of Eastern Ukraine (are the recent gains by the Western forces the cause or effect?), but it will be interesting to see what happens with Crimea once the East has been fully occupied.
Really, I do not see how this situation will ever be righted. This war will not make the East more amiable to going along with those policies set by the West, and the country will be more divisive than ever. The West will want more control, but I think greater autonomy in the East as a part of Ukraine is really the only thing that will have any chance of bringing peace to the Eastern half of the country.
Gryzemuis on 16/8/2014 at 11:19
And that is exactly what most separatists wanted. And what Russia suggested. Changing Ukraine into a federation, where each large region has more autonomy. There were some separatists that wanted to join Russia, but that was a small minority. And I don't think it was ever a real option. AFAIK Russia has always backed a federation-solution.
People might not like Russia and Putin. But as far as I can see, they have always been very clear about what they wanted and what they are doing. A lot less sugar-coating than what politicians do in the west. And a lot less hidden agendas. When they want Crimea to join Russia, they simply say they want Crimea to join Russia. When they say they have no interest in Ukraine joining Russia, only that Ukraine doesn't join NATO, it seems that is exactly what they mean.
Our local news is filled every day with news about tomatoes and greenhouse-farmers. A lot of unhappy people. I wonder what will happen when the gas-situation changes.
Ukraine claims they have fought an Ukraine military convoy, and scared them back to Russia. Russia claims that never happened. US says they have no proof or indications it happened. No journalist has seen it. There are no phone-cam pictures or movies. Imho, the Kiev government tries to fight a PR-war, next to the real civil war. And they really suck at it.
bukary on 16/8/2014 at 13:37
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
And that is exactly what most separatists wanted. And what Russia suggested. Changing Ukraine into a federation, where each large region has more autonomy.
All righty. Would you agree if Germans wanted to change the Netherlands into, let's say, a federation of two "regions". Western Netherlands would remain the same (a consociational state). Eastern Netherlands would become a "republic" with German as a second official language and a state where Germans would bring their "humanitarian help" (or harvest natural resources, take over the parliament, build military bases etc.)? Would you agree? Would you agree because some separatist wish the Netherlands were like that?
Polish soldiers (along with Canadians and Brits) died in 1944-45 in the Netherlands so that you could have a free (and independent) country and could write such bullshit right now. Would you agree?
Quote:
People might not like Russia and Putin. But as far as I can see, they have always been very clear about what they wanted and what they are doing. A lot less sugar-coating than what politicians do in the west. And a lot less hidden agendas. When they want Crimea to join Russia, they simply say they want Crimea to join Russia. When they say they have no interest in Ukraine joining Russia, only that Ukraine doesn't join NATO, it seems that is exactly what they mean.
Such reasoning is... incredibly stupid. So.. it is OK to be evil as long as you admit that you are evil? Putin wants to deprive Ukrainians of their independence and you admire him because he has just started to have some problems with sugare-coating his intentions and can no longer pretend (at least not in the eyes of the world) what he really wants to do.
You act like you've just discovered that all politicians (Western and Eastern) lie. And each country protects its own interests. Isn't it common knowledge? But if I had to choose between Russian and European "hypocrisy", I would always support the latter. Why? Take some history lessons and you will know. Remember the differences between West (European democracy) and East Germany (Russian "democracy")? Where would you prefer to live?
You really do believe that the Western World is a worse place to live than Putin's Russia? You really do believe that Putin wishes all the best for Ukrainians? And that Ukrainians do not know what's good for them? Are you really that naive?
BTW, what "more hidden agendas" does EU have? Russia: we want to make Ukraine our puppet-state and kick NATO in the ass. America and Union: we would like Ukraine to become part of the Union (and perhaps NATO) and kick Russians in the ass. Which "hidden agenda" you prefer, Gryzemuis? I'd gladly hear more of your conspiracy theories. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Our local news is filled every day with news about tomatoes and greenhouse-farmers. A lot of unhappy people. I wonder what will happen when the gas-situation changes.
So... you would trade tomatoes for freedom. The terrorists supported by Russians has just (most likely) shot down your plane and you are talking about tomatoes? It's a shame.
Quote:
Ukraine claims they have fought an Ukraine military convoy, and scared them back to Russia. Russia claims that never happened. US says they have no proof or indications it happened. No journalist has seen it.
Here you go:
Quote:
Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the Nato chief, said it was “a Russian incursion” that confirmed long-held suspicions of “a continuous flow of weapons and fighters from Russia into eastern Ukraine”, where pro-Russian rebels are fighting government troops.
The Telegraph correspondent was one of two journalists to witness at least 23 armoured personnel carriers and military trucks crossing from Russia into Ukraine near the Donetsk checkpoint north of Rostov-on-Don on Thursday evening. More military vehicles approached the border on Friday.
(
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11038156/Ukraine-destroys-parts-of-convoy-of-Russian-military-vehicles.html) Source.
nemyax on 16/8/2014 at 14:11
Quote Posted by bukary
So... you would trade tomatoes for freedom.
I'd trade some other country's freedom for domestic tomatoes any day.
Quote:
The Telegraph correspondent was one of two journalists to witness at least 23 armoured personnel carriers and military trucks crossing from Russia into Ukraine near the Donetsk checkpoint north of Rostov-on-Don on Thursday evening. More military vehicles approached the border on Friday.
The incursion has not been confirmed by any official sources other than Nato (and of course Poroshenko, but screw him). RT and the Ukrainian media routinely break each other's records of how tall a tale they can tell, so lots of irresponsible "witnessing" has been going on. This time they don't even have a youtube video to support their claims.
bukary on 16/8/2014 at 17:16
Quote Posted by nemyax
I'd trade some other country's freedom for domestic tomatoes any day.
Well, in spite of all possible sarcasm... that explains a lot.
I come from the country that often resigned from enjoyment of tomato soup and fought for other people's freedom (although these other people often batrayed us in return). I really would prefer to live my life without "tomatoes" than kill other people in order to provide myself with some goods. It seems you value domestic vegetables (economic growth, income, citizens' wealth etc.) over other (foreign) people's lives. If such twisted "patriotism" is the case, no wonder you support Putin's politics (or bashing Ukraine) here.
BTW, Zakharchenko has just officialy stated that Russia is training them and supporting with weapons. His speech (video and sound) is all over the news. No "witnessing" this time. Indeed, no more sugar-coating, Grzyzemuis.
(
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28817347) Rebel fighters 'trained in Russia'
