nemyax on 16/8/2014 at 17:57
Quote Posted by bukary
no wonder you support Putin's politics (or bashing Ukraine) here
I don't support Putin's politics, and I oppose military support for the rebels. I never voted for the guy or liked anything about him (except perhaps his stance on Syria). And I
am bashing Ukraine—meaning the Ukrainian authorities.
bukary on 16/8/2014 at 18:25
Quote Posted by nemyax
I don't support Putin's politics, and I oppose military support for the rebels.
My mistake then. Perhaps I got the wrong impression from other thread(s) where you persistently discredited and mocked Ukrainian actions against Putin's efforts to subordinate his neighbour. :p
nemyax on 16/8/2014 at 19:14
Quote Posted by bukary
you persistently discredited and mocked Ukrainian actions against Putin's efforts to subordinate his neighbour
There used to be comedy in this. But then came May 2nd in Odessa, an all-out war in the east, and MH 17. It's a mad evil part of the world.
Gryzemuis on 16/8/2014 at 19:41
Bukary, all you seem to do is make strawman's arguments. You put words in my mouth that I have never said. Or even thought. Like you suggest that I love Russia and Putin. You suggest that I'd prefer to live in Russia over western Europe. You suggest all kinds of unrelated things.
All I said is: the Ukrainian government in Kiev are not the good guys. They are not my friends. I loathe the fact that the Kiev government is shelling their own civilians and have killed 800-1200 innocent people. I don't like the fact that the western media are so biased that they completely ignore this drama.
I didn't mean to say Russia wants the Ukraine to be a federation. And therefor Ukraine should be split. I should have been more careful and say: the separatists want a federation. And Russia supports that idea. And thinks it would be a good solution. Nemyax seems to think the same. I think the same as well.
I really can't go into all crazy schemes you propose.
The only thing I want to say is: if people in eastern Netherlands would like it if the east would split of in a federation, then let them organize a referendum. If 66%+ supports the idea, fine. The US is kinda of a federation, where the states have a lot of power. Germany is a federation. Who cares ? If people want German as a 2nd official language, fine with me. If they had significant numbers (like 20%+). And if they have 66% agreeing in a referendum. I've lived in Belgium. They have 2 official languages there. I've lived in Brussels. Dutch is the minority language there, and it sucks. But can you imagine if I had been forbidden to speak my own mother language ?
See here how much support there is for Russian as 2nd language.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine#Second_official_language.3F)
Some areas have 70-80% of the people supporting the idea. Who are we to tell them they can't do that ?
The Ukraine ultra-nationalists, Svoboda, suggested to forbid Russian from all places in the Ukraine.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29#Language)
It is not stated in that wiki-article, but I recall that Svoboda wanted to forbid any use of the Russian language in the whole of Ukraine.
Are those your friends ? People who want to forbid others to speak their mother's tongue ?
zombe on 16/8/2014 at 22:10
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
All I said is: the Ukrainian government in Kiev are not the good guys.
Yes they have problems. Now they have much more problems instigated by Russia.
* Their problems are theirs to fix (and us to help with).
* What Russia does cannot be justified nor supported - they are the bigger problem (perhaps, at this point, far greater than Ukraine ever had).
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
I don't like the fact that the western media are so biased that they completely ignore this drama.
I can not comment your media, but i have not encountered any unjustified bias (*) and no-one ignores the drama.
*) As in: if it looks like shit, smells like shit, its composition matches shit and it came from someones anus - you do not necessarily need to taste it to tell it is shit. If you disagree then bon appétit.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
I didn't mean to say Russia wants the Ukraine to be a federation. And therefor Ukraine should be split. I should have been more careful and say: the separatists want a federation. And Russia supports that idea. And thinks it would be a good solution. Nemyax seems to think the same. I think the same as well.
No. It is not theirs to decide (if it would only affect them, excluding some special exceptions that do not have their criterion met in this case, then i would agree).
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
The only thing I want to say is: if people in eastern Netherlands would like it if the east would split of in a federation, then let them organize a referendum. If 66%+ supports the idea, fine.
That would be, and is, perfectly fine in Ukraine too. What was your point again? Are you employing a different criteria? The Ukraine related question, spelled out more clearly, would be: if the majority of any part of Netherlands would like to split then is it okay to allow it when the rest of Netherlands is against it?
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
It is not stated in that wiki-article, but I recall that Svoboda wanted to forbid any use of the Russian language in the whole of Ukraine. /.../ People who want to forbid others to speak their mother's tongue ?
You are making shit up.
"Official language" has special meaning - nothing of the sort you are making up it to be (this is not to say anything about Svoboda [besides it being very cringe-worthy name - for different reasons]).
Coming from a country that has only one official language despite having a sizable minority with different mother language:
* it does not mean you can not have schools that teach in the non-state/official language and are even still state funded - not to mention non-state funded schools.
* it does not mean that you can not live your everyday life using exclusively your mother language (all businesses and state institutions carter to fill their public fronts with people who can speak both languages [+ additional languages when needed ... like English ... or whatever other language pops up often enough]).
Official/state language only means that it is the minimal set of languages one MUST be able to get by with.
bukary on 16/8/2014 at 22:25
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
All I said is: the Ukrainian government in Kiev are not the good guys.
So...? What's your point? Are there any "good guys" anywhere? If we were to take your conspiracy theories seriously... Western World is also not inhabited by "good guys". Are Russians "good guys"? Define "good guys" and give us some examples, please. You are constantly implying that Ukraine is bad, that Ukraine is killing innocent people etc. etc. What the fuck should Ukrainians do? Should they behave like your countrymen in Srebrenica and do nothing? Are they not entitled to defend their country? They are bad because of what they do right now (fighting against Russian troops and terrorists supported by Russia), or because some Ukrainian politics are ugly nationalists? They would be "good guys" if they surrendered to Russians and became their puppets? And let me remind you that there would be no war, no innocent people killed, if Putin did not start to dream about rebuilding old Empire by taking Crimea and preventing Ukrainians from doing what they wanted: joining EU in the future. There would be no war if Putin did not allow to train terrorists and provide them with weapons.
Quote:
I don't like the fact that the western media are so biased that they completely ignore this drama.
All media are biased. Be happy that the portion of lying propaganda is considerably smaller in our part of the world than it is in the East. But, as I said earlier, it is not the point. We all know there's (to use your word) "hypocrisy" everywhere. I would choose western hypocrisy over Putin's any day. I already said why.
Quote:
I didn't mean to say Russia wants the Ukraine to be a federation. And therefor Ukraine should be split. I should have been more careful and say: the separatists want a federation. And Russia supports that idea. And thinks it would be a good solution. Nemyax seems to think the same. I think the same as well.
Unfortunately for you, most of the Ukrainians (see presidential election) loathe your great "solution". Why should they listen to you? Why should they do what Russia wants? It's their country. Their freedom. They decided to overcome the treacherous president who turned out to be Russian servant. That's exactly what Central and Easter Europe countries did in 1989. Ukrainians wanted to be the part of so-called Western Europe. You have no right to decide what they should live like. We've already had one Yalta Conference. I think that Russians should never get another opportunity to decide about other free nations' fate. Do you agree?
Quote:
Who are we to tell them they can't do that ?
That's exactly the "hipocrisy" you supposedly despise. Isn't that you who deny Ukrainians their right to fight for independent country?
Quote:
Are those your friends ? People who want to forbid others to speak their mother's tongue ?
Don't use this false rhetoric, because I might ask you the same question: are terrorists who probably shot down the plane with children on board your friends? Is he your friend?
Inline Image:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/18/1405717289145/A-pro-Russia-fighter-hold-007.jpgsee?
nemyax on 16/8/2014 at 23:34
Quote Posted by bukary
They decided to overcome the treacherous president who turned out to be Russian servant. That's exactly what Central and Easter Europe countries did in 1989.
No, in Ukraine it was different. Ukrainians traditionally vote for populist cunts who know how to make promises but have no intention of delivering, and then they depose them. In 2010, Yanukovich won what appears to be a fair election (it was certainly more fair than any election ever held in Russia anyway), while the ratings of the Western-oriented incumbent president Yushchenko were at just about zero. Apparently "Europe versus Russia" was an irrelevant dichotomy at the time, since Ukraine knew full well who Yanukovich sided with.
Now they have a former Yanukovich cabinet minister for president. See how well that's going to work out for them, Russia or no Russia. The "freedom-unity-choice" kool-aid is very palatable until you take a closer look at the personalities of those that dole it out.
Gryzemuis on 17/8/2014 at 02:57
That picture is EXACTLY what I am talking about.
How the western media twist every little thing. And make it look like the simplistic world view of the previous century. Us against them. We are the good guys. They are the bad guys. Everything the bad guys do is bad. And everything we do is good. And everything our friends do is good too ! And let's lie a bit to make us look better and them look worse. For the good cause !
Now please read this webpage.
And please look at the YT-movie that is on that webpage.
(
http://times.altervista.org/medias-truth-rebel-mourning-mh17-victims-turned-looter-trophy/) Media's truth: How rebel mourning MH17 victims was turned into looter with trophy.
Now I don't speak Russian. And the movie does not have subtitles. Maybe you do speak russian ? Or Nemyax ? Maybe the two of you can translate the important bits ? The article does explain what happened. But it is clear: these are not triumphant looters posing with their trophy. But the western media did make it look like that.
I try to stay unbiased. A human life is a human life, no matter where that person was born. When we convict people, we convict them based on evidence. This whole way of thinking: "they are the bad guys, so they must have done it anyway" is just too simplistic for my taste. In just 6 months, it's almost as if we're back in McCarthyism times.
bukary on 17/8/2014 at 06:32
Quote Posted by nemyax
The "freedom-unity-choice" kool-aid is very palatable until you take a closer look at the personalities of those that dole it out.
You are absolutely right about voting mechanics in Ukraine. People are often naive and politics lie. OK. But it is the same in other countries. That's why I think my analogy stands. For example, check the history of Poland since 1989. We also had ultra-nationalists and former commmunists in our governments. Poles elected former activists of communists party as their prime minister and president. The former signed threaty of accession into EU and the latter signed our treaty with NATO. We did this with their dirty hands.
That does not change the fact that the whole nation took the right direction after "revolution" in 1989. Just like Ukrainians do now. Once you taste the world of real democracy for good, you do not want to go back. And it is not an easy task for politicians to convince people otherwise.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
That picture is EXACTLY what I am talking about. How the western media twist every little thing.
You sound like a broken record. You whine over a picture that was presented in this thread as an example of false rhethoric. Why don't you refer to what I and zombe said about fallacy of your reasoning?
And just to let you know: this picture was presented in my country not as an example of "triumph", but as an example of complete lack of taste and heart. It is really inapropriate to pose with
this toy. And the fact that several weeks prior I saw interview with exactly this guy who was bragging with some sort of an anti-craft weapon in his hand and a smile on his face: "We are going to shoot planes. Yey!" does not help. Yes, it was really this guy. What a shitty coincidence.
nemyax on 17/8/2014 at 08:20
bukary
Poland, which is fairly unified in the first place, is a weak analogy for Ukraine, which is really two Ukraines rolled into one. I believe there are more similarities with Czechoslovakia. I've always admired the smooth and peaceful way it transitioned from part of the Soviet bloc to two sovereign states. But I'm hard pressed to admire anything the Ukrainian governments have done since 1991. And they have blamed all of their own fuckups on the moskali all along.
Then again, Czechoslovakia had the luxury of not being Russia's neighbour, and Ukraine doesn't.
