Gryzemuis on 17/8/2014 at 12:16
Quote Posted by bukary
You sound like a broken record.
Because hypocrisy of the western media, and western government is my point.
Not all the words you try to put in my mouth.
I am not a Putin lover. I don't support Russia. I don't want to live in Russia. But even when you don't like someone, or even hate someone, that doesn't mean you should not treat them fair.
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And the fact that several weeks prior I saw interview with exactly this guy who was bragging with some sort of an anti-craft weapon in his hand and a smile on his face: "We are going to shoot planes. Yey!" does not help. Yes, it was really this guy. What a shitty coincidence.
In that case, post a link to a video that shows that. That would be informative. And not a picture that has been abused by western media to mean more than that it meant. When I saw the full YT, it looked a lot like different from that one picture. And that is my point. Not to prove if this guy shot down the plane or not. If someone can, please let us know.
bukary on 17/8/2014 at 18:56
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
But even when you don't like someone, or even hate someone, that doesn't mean you should not treat them fair.
What are you implying here? That you do not treat Ukrainians fair? :p They are "bad guys", right?... So who are these mysterious good guys in this case, Gryzemuis? I have every reason to "hate" Ukrainians (see (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia) this, for example)... and yet I try to treat them fair and remain as unbiased as I can. Are you ready to do the same?
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In that case, post a link to a video that shows that. That would be informative.
It only shows how merciless, ready to kill and stupid this guy is. It does not prove that he shot the plane down. It was Polish journalist who spoke with the terrorist. I saw this "interview" on Polish TV channel*. I remember it very well, because it was replayed in the news after this terrible tragedy. I tried to find it. Unfortunately, there are no news from this period archived on TVP website. Perhaps someone recorded this coverage. I'll ask.
*For the record: this conversation was not manipulated in any way. The terrorist willingly said that he is going to use this anti-aircraft weapon and he did it with undisguised joy. And just to be clear: this weapon was not BUK missle system.
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When I saw the full YT, it looked a lot like different from that one picture. And that is my point. Not to prove if this guy shot down the plane or not. If someone can, please let us know.
Western propaganda: this picture shows that the separatists treat our tragedy as their triumph (although we know that he raised this monkey-toy to say that there were no survivors and even children were killed). Separatists' propaganda: this picture shows that we are really sorry and we respect all the victims (although this guy is holding the symbol of a great tragedy and smoking a cigarrette at the same time and we know for sure that the separatists stole many personal items from victims' bodies and even tried to use their credit cards later).
As I said many times, there are "hypocrits" on each side. So...? How does it make Ukarainian fight for independence wrong?
bukary on 28/8/2014 at 17:42
Well, Russia has just silently invaded Ukraine... Russian soldiers, tanks, vehicles are fighting against Ukrainian army now.
I wonder if all these TTLG Russia supporters ("Putin will not attack Ukraine, he just wanted Crimea"; "Putin has never said that he wants to rebuild Russian empire in its old shape") have anything to say... :p
Tony_Tarantula on 28/8/2014 at 22:09
Quote Posted by bukary
Well, Russia has just silently invaded Ukraine... Russian soldiers, tanks, vehicles are fighting against Ukrainian army now.
I wonder if all these TTLG Russia supporters ("Putin will not attack Ukraine, he just wanted Crimea"; "Putin has never said that he wants to rebuild Russian empire in its old shape") have anything to say... :p
They've been "silently invading" for some time. It wasn't covered much in the Western press but there were large numbers of Russian "tourists" who just happened to be wearing soviet style uniforms without patches and using soviet military gear terrorizing any civilians who spoke out against Russia.
demagogue on 29/8/2014 at 03:40
It's hard to suppose they assumed they wouldn't get caught moving that many units across the border. I'm sure they had to decide knowing it'd be viewed as an intentional act.
But I guess it worked for them in Crimea. Just shove a bunch of troops without flags or insignias into another sovereign country and by the time people catch on to the scale of it they're in effective control. What's Ukraine going to do, declare war on Russia?
They may have also figured why build a bridge to Crimea when they can just annex a land route to it.
I only find it funny that it's all a bit lazy ... Not like they have covert paramilitary teams wearing all black infiltrating at night. They just change their uniforms and pull the flags off vehicles and let them roll in broad daylight.
Gryzemuis on 29/8/2014 at 10:47
At least they are not shelling their own civilian population. And killing a 2000 innocent civilians.
DDL on 29/8/2014 at 12:00
Coz Russia is historically so (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag) incredibly careful with its own citizens?
Also, who's keeping this running deathtoll anyway, and how reliable is it likely to be?
Gryzemuis on 29/8/2014 at 12:49
Quote Posted by DDL
Also, who's keeping this running deathtoll anyway, and how reliable is it likely to be?
I don't know.
It's on the wiki-page. Right-hand tab.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass)
I've seen quite a few movies on YT and webpages, taken from Eastern Ukraine.
Lots and lots of suburbs and villages shot to rubble.
I've seen nothing, absolutely nothing, about that on Dutch tv.
The shit has hit the fan now.
Nobody knows what Russia's goal is here.
And again, I don't support Russia. Especially not in this week's situation.
But I have a slight feeling that Kiev, and the EU and the US, have not handled this properly at all.
I'm old enough that I have lived in the cold war. But not old enough to have understood the absolute political mess that politicians have made during the seventies and eighties. Vietnam and those types of blunders. But now that I am a bit older, and a bit more cynical, I find it unbelievable on what amateur-level world politics are played. And ordinary people die. It's disgusting.
icemann on 29/8/2014 at 13:38
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Nobody knows what Russia's goal is here.
If nobody you mean you don't know then you have only to read the posts in this thread to see what everyone else knows their goal is. You have only to look at Crimea to see what their end goal is. The rest of the world knew what they were up to a long time ago.
Spoiler alert:
Annex all of Ukraine or at the very least the Eastern half of it to mother Russia.Feel free to dispute that and many of us here will have a very big "I told you so" to say in a few months time.
And your really starting to sound like a broken record.
And for the 1 millionth time:
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
At least they are not shelling their own civilian population
Civilian deaths are inevitable in all wars, as has been the case in 100% of all wars in human history and will continue to be so. Comments like that are completely ridiculous.
And in either case, they are shelling Russians. Invaders to their country who go under the pretext of being Ukrainian. It's Russia's way of circumventing international law since they can't go all out official territory grab invasion style on Ukraine since the EU + the US would sanction them to the point of complete bankruptcy.
nemyax on 29/8/2014 at 14:22
Quote Posted by icemann
Annex all of Ukraine or at the very least the Eastern half of it to mother Russia.More likely,
gain broad autonomy for the disputed regions and put Moscow's puppets in charge. If Russia really were in the conquering mood, it would already be over. Case in point: Georgia in 2008 (or Crimea in 2014).
