Subtle differences between the US and the UK that baffle me/you/us. - by SubJeff
DaBeast on 14/12/2012 at 13:44
Quote Posted by heywood
I find the UK a bit weird because many people will tip 10% in a restaurant but others will tip token amounts and some not at all. And most people won't tip in a pub, but some pubs have restaurant-like table service. There doesn't seem to be much consensus.
I also agree with SE and Renz that factory work is easy compared to service.
Factory work is not complex, but as far as physical labour goes, can shuffling plates really compare to stack pallets or even constantly doing something?. The point was though, that in a factory you'd get paid more for having to work either harder or a more boring job, hence the extra money, but some people would rather get paid less officially and subsidise their income on the random generosity of strangers.
Which brings me to your point about the UK. The point of a tip, is supposed to be a little extra for doing a good job, there is no obligation. We have a minimum wage, which is what most typical service people get, unless it's an elite restaurant. If a meal cost £90 you might say keep to change. You might not, you won't get derided for doing so, the server wouldn't feel hard done by.
Deciding to base your income on the random generosity of strangers (customers) is silly. Trying to force random generosity is sillier still.
Quote Posted by faetal
I don't drive, so perhaps there is something I don't get, but other than the
issue of which one is most prevalent, is there any rationale at all for there being a "correct" side of the road to drive on? Like, are there accident statistics which correlate with one side above other variables?
Because the steering wheel is in the other side, that should counter being on the "wrong" side of the road.
SubJeff on 14/12/2012 at 14:12
Quote Posted by DaBeast
Factory work is not complex, but as far as physical labour goes, can shuffling plates really compare to stack pallets or even constantly doing something?
So you've decided to ignore what Renz and I have posted. Well done for stubbornness.
Quote:
Deciding to base your income on the random generosity of strangers (customers) is silly. Trying to force random generosity is sillier still.
A. That's the service culture and it works because of the nature of the job.
B. Would you rather everyone went to work in factories? Who would serve you then?
Quote:
Because the steering wheel is in the other side, that should counter being on the "wrong" side of the road.
How narrow minded we are.
A test for you - can you find out the relative proportions of left and right handed people?
DDL on 14/12/2012 at 14:46
"That's the service culture and it works because of the nature of the job."
That's a very subjeff answer. Besides, DaBeast's point was that the UK system, where waiting wages are reasonable and tipping makes up a smaller percentage of their income, is better than the US system, where the wages are shocking and it's assumed that you'll get fucktons of enormous tips, often to the point where large tips are totally expected even when the service is shitty.
SubJeff on 14/12/2012 at 15:19
If by "a subjeff answer" you mean one that recognises that in the service industry your worth doesn't get measured by how well finish off a project or hit sales targets or whatever but by how well you perform the service at the time then yeah.
DDL on 14/12/2012 at 16:41
More of a "this is the way it is because that's the way it is (subtext: as any good englishman should know)" ;)
Anyway, my point would be that shifting the wage onus from the employer to those people being served effectively converts a carrot ("if you provide service above and beyond that which is expected, you get rewarded") to a stick ("unless you provide service above and beyond that which is expected, you don't get to eat this week").
For a start, you can't have EVERYONE consistently providing above average service.
But mostly, you're forcing the issue toward two possible outcomes: one, waiters are constantly super-chipper and helpful, with the sort of forced smile that comes with a status of "if I don't do this shit, I don't get to eat this week", or two (and this is somewhat more likely, given that humans are humans, and nobody can retain forced cheerfulness forever) you maintain exactly the same level of service you would ANYWAY (if wages were bigger and tips less important), but now the waiters feel entitled to huge tips because that's essentially how they get paid.
The former is shitty for the waiters, the latter is shitty for the waiters and the customers.
The UK system actually fits much better with your comparison to "assessment of worth" because tips act more like a bonus than a fundamental part of the salary. If you wanted to make your example analogous to the US system you'd be talking about a company that (if you don't exceed your end of year sales targets or whatever) only pays you half your wage.
faetal on 14/12/2012 at 16:49
Quote Posted by DaBeast
Because the steering wheel is in the other side, that should counter being on the "wrong" side of the road.
Huh? The steering wheel is on whichever side suits the roads. In the US, the steering wheel is on the left, in the UK, it's on the right. I meant that when you take into account symmetry, is there any sensible reason why anyone should consider their way to be superior.
DDL on 14/12/2012 at 17:00
I believe there's some evidence to suggest that using your right hand to hold the wheel steady while shifting gears with the left is safer, since in right-handed people the right side of your body is usually marginally stronger and more coordinated. This is, however, slightly confounded by the fact that most cars in the US are automatics, and the fact that lefties in general just have more accidents.
I could probably spend an hour pubmedding it, but who wants to resort to actual peer review, eh? :D
faetal on 14/12/2012 at 17:01
Of course, that would be highly elitist of you.
SubJeff on 14/12/2012 at 17:34
Quote Posted by DDL
More of a "this is the way it is because that's the way it is (subtext: as any good englishman should know)" ;)
The UK system actually fits much better with your comparison to "assessment of worth" because tips act more like a bonus than a fundamental part of the salary. If you wanted to make your example analogous to the US system you'd be talking about a company that (if you don't exceed your end of year sales targets or whatever) only pays you half your wage.
Not at all. I was referring to the second part of the quote, and I agree that the UK system is better. I still find it hard to believe that in the US waiters depend on tips.
DaBeast on 14/12/2012 at 18:20
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
So you've decided to ignore what Renz and I have posted. Well done for stubbornness.
A. That's the service culture and it works because of the nature of the job.
B. Would you rather everyone went to work in factories? Who would serve you then?
I quoted a guy who referenced both yours and Renz' opinion, to save on filling up a post with direct quotes. Forgive me for not considering your feelings on this.
A: Missing the point of my post and this thread.
B: See above
My problem isn't with waiters, its the idea that tipping is normal. All of the defences for or against is largely moot, its the fact there's a difference of opinion which is what this thread is about.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
If by "a subjeff answer" you mean one that recognises that in the service industry your worth doesn't get measured by how well finish off a project or hit sales targets or whatever but by how well you perform the service at the time then yeah.
No, it seems to be determined by how much your employer decides to charge for food, of which you had no part in creating, but feel fit to take 15-20% of the cost as a commission for bringing it to a table.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
How narrow minded we are.
Is this wilful ignorance or are you trying to find something to get angry about?
Quote Posted by faetal
Huh? The steering wheel is on whichever side suits the roads. In the US, the steering wheel is on the left, in the UK, it's on the right. I meant that when you take into account symmetry, is there any sensible reason why anyone should consider their way to be superior.
The rationale is, that if your steering wheel in on the left side of the car you should drive on the right side of the road. The driver has a better command of vision and awareness around him that way, I could well be wrong, but that's what I've always thought.
Was there a system for horse and cart, as a highway code of ye olde days?
Probably unrelated, but over here there was a common curtsey type of thing to move on the left in a corridor or building or w/e.
