Subtle differences between the US and the UK that baffle me/you/us. - by SubJeff
ZylonBane on 14/12/2012 at 21:49
Company names are not plural, you weirdos.
heywood on 15/12/2012 at 00:04
Quote Posted by DDL
I kinda think his point was just that: "they're not actually being paid a living wage because tips are factored into it" -this is the
problem.
It takes the entire "tipping for good service" idea and inverts it: you're now tipping
regardless of service because, quite simply, you're now the primary source of income for your waiter, not his or her actual
employer. If you don't tip, they'll starve, so you tip not because the service was great but because you don't want to be responsible for someone fucking starving.
But you're the server's primary source of income either way. One system gives the recipient of the service more control over the server's compensation, that's all. And who is in a better position to evaluate the server's job performance, the customers or the restaurant manager?
For those who object to tipping, does it also bother you when restaurants add a fixed 10-12% service charge to every bill automatically? I've started seeing this more often in London area hotels and nicer restaurants.
Quote Posted by faetal
Yes, but this is irrelevant since in the US, cars have the steering wheel on the left hand side and on the UK, it is on the right hand side. I was wondering why anyone has any reason to think one is better. I'm not talking about side of road vs. side of steering wheel I'm talking why either would be better, given that there is symmetry making them the same.
I also wonder why people debate about this.
In the Caribbean islands, you drive on the left in left hand drive cars. Even that isn't much of a problem.
SubJeff on 15/12/2012 at 00:09
Quote Posted by DaBeast
The rationale is, that if your steering wheel in on the left side of the car you should drive on the right side of the road. The driver has a better command of vision and awareness around him that way, I could well be wrong, but that's what I've always thought.
Was there a system for horse and cart, as a highway code of ye olde days?
Do you even read what other people post?
This has been gone over more than once in the thread. I'm baffled as to why you're even talking about steering wheels being on the left or right - everyone knows that it changes depending on which side of the road you drive on.
DDL on 15/12/2012 at 00:30
Quote Posted by heywood
But you're the server's primary source of income either way. One system gives the recipient of the service more control over the server's compensation, that's all. And who is in a better position to evaluate the server's job performance, the customers or the restaurant manager?
If by "more control" you mean "cough up cash regardless of service, or feel like a dick for denying a waiter something approaching a basic wage", then I guess...yes?
It comes down to "should tips tend to represent performance bonuses, or basic wage stipends?"
If waiters get paid a decent wage ANYWAY, then they simply have the prospect of tips to encourage them to get an even better wage. If they're paid below minimum wage on the assumption that tips will make up the difference, it's gone from being a bonus to a necessity, which essentially defeats the entire purpose of the exercise. Now the onus is on the customer to support the waiter, and in all honesty, while you can argue it's semantics (customer money pays waiter wages either way), it's the semantics that are important here. Rather than being charged X for some food, some of which will go toward the wages of your waiter, and having the option to add Y to your bill, all of which will be a bonus for your waiter, you're being charged LESS than X for your food, less of which goes toward the wages of your waiter, ON THE ASSUMPTION that you will then chip in MORE than Y to your bill, all of which will go toward bringing the waiter's wage up to acceptable levels.
It's gone from "I should reward this person for being a great waiter" to "regardless of service, I better give this person a tip because otherwise they might starve, because this system is fucking terrible".
Now clearly it's not like the UK system is
totally performance based, since tipping is still more or less considered obligatory unless the service was fucking atrocious, but because the bar is set lower (10% or so) you have more scope for expressing approval by boosting that to 15 or 20. In the US it often feels like "20% or you're a cockbag": there's far less scope for expressing approval or disapproval, purely because the sense of obligation is greater. Does that make sense?
june gloom on 15/12/2012 at 00:50
I rarely see people tip 20% here -- that's a little high even by my wealthy not-immediate-family's standards. The real average is about 15%.
Phatose on 15/12/2012 at 00:52
I've always been told 15% is the baseline. My mother in law has a wallet sheet with 15% tips, that's how baseline it is.
DaBeast on 15/12/2012 at 01:07
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Do you even read what other people post?
This has been gone over more than once in the thread. I'm baffled as to why you're even talking about steering wheels being on the left or right - everyone knows that it changes depending on which side of the road you drive on.
Quote Posted by faetal
I'm talking why either would be better, given that there is symmetry making them the same.
Fair point, I misread the last part of one of your posts, then edited something out of another of mine and forgot to rephrase it.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Petty insults, maybe, but everything else you said is in opposition to reality. At what point was any part of my post a result of "willful ignorance?" I was responding to your post, in which you displayed your own willful ignorance ("DUR HUR U.S. WAITRESSES MAKE MORE THAN NURSES DUR HUR") and a staggering lack of compassion for other people, you ungrateful bastard. And anyway, I'm not the one who made a horribly anti-Semitic comment and then tried to say "CALM DOWN WAS JUST JOKE " -- you are, so no I don't have a lot of respect for bigots, especially entitled ones like you. Why don't you actually try answering my original post like a man instead of whining about how I'm so mean to you?
Where did I say a waitress serving coffee in a diner makes more than a nurse
Explain why I'm ungrateful
This is the third or fourth thread you've tried to derail with that bullshit anti-Semitism. Get a grip.
As to your last point (and in effect explaining out why the first one, and your initial post was kinda dumb, and why it seems you're just trying to start a row.
Quote Posted by DaBeast
In the average diner/cafe, you leave a couple dollars and that's fine, but in the cities like New York, in restaurants they not only expect their 15-25%, they'll come after you to get it.
Quote Posted by DaBeast
So anyway, the difference in attitude, Americans are not only totally ok with tipping, but see us in the UK and Ireland as cheap, stingy etc.
Quote Posted by DaBeast
ugh, I really don't know why this, of all the
petty things to be annoyed about, gets to me.
SubJeff on 15/12/2012 at 01:10
Quote Posted by DDL
I kinda think his point was just that: "they're not actually being paid a living wage because tips are factored into it" -this is the
problem.
Yes, I agree.
If I ever go to the USA you can be sure I'll tip higher than I do in the UK because I can't really use my UK rule there if the waiters don't actually make a living wage. How ridiculous.
On the other hand - ever been to The Continent? Italy, Belgium and (my fav) Spain are fine. I found the waiters in Greece to be preeeetty damn slow, and I actually like the Italian and Spanish laid back attitude (that so many Brits fume about) because I'm used to Africatime which is just as relaxed. I didn't tip in Greece. French waiters have a bit of a rep for being rude but I've never been (except to Calais, a real hole, on my way through the ferry port to Belgium). Frankly, I'd be disappointed if the French weren't at least as rude as the guy who owns the French deli in Clapham (if you haven't been and you're in the area do go. The guy wears a blue and white striped jumper and has a fantastic way of giving one grief when replying to any query about the food, in the best Continental manner ever).
june gloom on 15/12/2012 at 05:01
Sometimes you are such an unironic monocle-popper it's painful. This isn't exactly criticism, at least this time mind you. But holy hell that post was almost as British as (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107452) this.
SubJeff on 15/12/2012 at 09:15
Is it because I used the word "frankly"?
