Subtle differences between the US and the UK that baffle me/you/us. - by SubJeff
nickie on 8/1/2013 at 16:50
Quote Posted by Vivian
In england being working vs middle class is just a matter of education, and to a lesser extent, income. But being upper class, being posh, is not. You have to grow up posh to be posh. So even if i made a million quid a year doing.... uh... science .... and moved to chelsea and bought a horse i would not be upper class. But my kids might.
Yes. But I think it also depends on age. Class is important to my mother's generation and not important to mine. If my mother's generation went on a bit longer and were not going to die out in the next 10 years or so then I'd say your children wouldn't be, but their children might. But I also think that's more important to the would-be aristocracy. I don't think the aristocracy give a toss.
Regrettably, people are also still judged (from a class point of view) by how they speak and the words they use. You can be rich as Croesus and still be working class because you speak with a regional accent. And I believe it's also a question of whether you say lavatory/loo or toilet, sofa or couch/settee, sitting-room or lounge, napkin or serviette, pudding or sweet. These are obviously extremely important words and a dead giveaway if you've had elocution lessons but not learnt the vocabulary.
faetal on 8/1/2013 at 17:06
The person I mentioned who is the only person I know who believes in "good breeding" pours scorn on accents. She used to deride me for dropping my Ts, which is inevitable growing up in Hampshire. Ironically, all of my friends think I am well spoken (not quite posh, thank fuck) despite growing up in Saaaaahfampton and going to a state school and having parents which have Ulster accents. I put it down to the fact that my mother fastidiously corrected my mispronunciation of anything.
This friend of mine who didn't like accents also seemed to derive some feeling of superiority from the fact that her mother was very posh and came from a posh family which had its own coat of arms etc... I regularly asked her why she thought anything mattered other than what SHE did in life, to which she took great offence. Such an archaic principle.
nickie on 8/1/2013 at 20:10
Absolutely agree! My in-laws are Hampshire/Southampton - it's a very soft 'accent'. I think that attaching importance to things like coats-of-arms, posh accent etc. is much more a sign of insecurity and feelings of inferiority in the person who cares. At least it seems so to me in my experience. The people I know of 'good breeding' are not the ones who are interested in it. It's the aspirants who aren't really quite there who are at pains to point out a probably non-existant breeding. Anyway, most well-breds are interbred aren't they?
I met a woman not that long ago, airs and graces to the hilt, the worst name-dropper I'd ever met who obviously didn't approve of me, not being quite up to the mark any more, so to speak. I'm way too old to care now but I admit to laughing my socks off (to myself as I was brought up with manners) when she said inteegral. Wouldn't have paid any attention at all if it wasn't for the said airs and graces and silly attempts at putting us down. Hyacinth Bucket to a T.
But class based on money is just as awful. And there's a certain age of person who grew up in Thatcher's time who don't believe they're worth anything unless they have a large bank balance. Appalling. For all its faults, I'm glad I was living my formative years when everyone had flowers in their hair. :)
SubJeff on 8/1/2013 at 20:27
Quote Posted by nickie
Regrettably, people are also still judged (from a class point of view) by how they speak and the words they use... ...These are obviously extremely important words and a dead giveaway if you've had elocution lessons but not learnt the vocabulary.
I beg to differ. Regional accents on their own are not judged, but deep regional accents coupled with region dialect/habit (and by that I mean poor English) are. But this is more to do with level of education and your job in all likelihood.
Examples would be Yorkshire dropping of "th" and "a" - eg. I'll trash you wi'<s>th a</s> pick-axe, the Godawful Midlands habit of saying "you am", Geordies saying "gannin" instead of going and so on.
But there are some regional habits that are not judged in quite the same way. Many Geordies say "yous" as plural you, in much the same way as the French "vous" is to "tu" (and maybe Spanish "ustedes" is to "tu", thought I'm not really sure about these) and you get the Irish doing this too. Its not considered poorly in the same way as "you am" would be though.
I think the issue with this stuff is that it makes you sound like you don't know how to speak. I've met several people who use "you am" and without fail they've all revealed themselves to be lower middle class at best through other things they've said or done.
So I don't think its judging, per se, but rather inferring or deducing and although generalisation is dangerous in many of these cases the deduction is correct.
faetal on 8/1/2013 at 23:07
Just....wow. Fantasist is too mild a term.
[EDIT] For the record though, I can't stand Piers Morgan - please don't send him back.
nickie on 9/1/2013 at 18:54
I thought exactly the same thing a week or so ago when I first read of whoever's demand that he be returned. Please, please don't send him back.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I beg to differ. Regional accents on their own are not judged, but deep regional accents coupled with region dialect/habit (and by that I mean poor English) are. But this is more to do with level of education and your job in all likelihood. . .
I don't know. I'm not saying 'judge and condemn' just making assumptions maybe? Perhaps classified then, is a better word. But really I can only speak from my own experience and I'll say again, I think it has a lot to do with the age of the person 'judging' as to whether it's positive, negative or neutral. As far as I'm concerned, people make assumptions about me based entirely on what I'm wearing before I speak and change their assumption after I start speaking. And that hasn't really changed for 40 years although the last time it was made blindingly obvious was about 5 years ago.
It seems very shallow to me.
And sorry - seem to have wandered from the topic.
june gloom on 16/1/2013 at 23:36
Apparently I don't!
faetal on 17/1/2013 at 14:39
That quiz is a parody, and not a very good one.
