UnConeD on 8/7/2003 at 04:08

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Part of me reaaaaally likes this mission for the atmosphere, but part of me definitely hates it because of certain issues:

- Not having any weapons in the beginning. I don't mind limiting the weaponry, but outright stripping you of everything is usually too much. However that's not a problem: if you know what to do in this mission, you can reach the armory almost immediately (grab key downstairs, grab key upstairs, bingo), and the mission will proceed like any regular one. Reaching the armory feels like a stupid chore that was tacked on in the beginning to make it longer, but doesn't add anything relevant. Only first-time players who don't happen to stumble upon the right guard at the right time will spend ages sneaking around helplessly without any tools.
For example, I had tons of trouble finding the first secret passage, because at that point I didn't have a sword to cut down the banner hiding the switch.

- Not being consistent in atmosphere. The missions's main point is thriller/mystery (which is great) but it starts out as a regular mansion mission. And until you reach the back area (which isn't so obvious, see point #3), there's no indication at all that weird things are going on. So when you start seeing ghosts, people are getting murdered and the little girl walks around and disappears, it all feels a bit sudden and out of place.

- The mansion layout. I've read here that I'm not the only one who didn't find the red button behind the statue, and so I was stuck cleaning out the first part looking for the key that opens the door in the long hallway. For me, the main reason was that I thought the white-panel sliding door was a window and so didn't bother looking there at all (windows aren't exactly the dark-engine's main feat).
Further confusion is caused by the non-frobbable doors that are opened by a lever on the other side, but look like a regular door. This suggests that they simply cannot be opened (usually you can't see the lever). I thought the designer had simply used the 3D model because it looks a lot nicer than a flat painted-on door.
And once I *had* opened the panel (read about it here) and ended up in the theatre, my initial reaction was Qué?. This theatre was never mentioned anywhere so I had no idea where to go or what to do. I got down the ladder and ended up back where I started. Only then did I try the theatre's exit and saw the other buildings.
Oh and is it just me, or does the blue window behind the top of the staircase have a secret passage going through it (so the outside and inside window is not the same)?

- The location of dewdrop: through a secret passage AND an illusionnary wall (not used in regular Thief, thus very strange). Not exactly easy to find...
I read something about a woman's ghost giving hints about the illusionary wall. In my game, I saw the ghost through the boarded-up door standing there, but when I entered through the secret passage, she was gone.
IMO the secret passage was unnecessary and simply served as an obstacle.

- The torture room/jail area seemed completely out of place. What's up with these huge tunnels under the ground? Why does this guy have so many prisoners? ... Nothing up to this point even hinted at something like this.
However, this is not as weird as how you have to leave the area... through a weird crawlspace tunnel, across the church roof and into a meeting area which can only be opened from the inside. Yay!

- The invincible, non-blackjackable guards in the twilight-zone. Some NPC's ignore you, others are friendly towards you (the servant girl), but all the guards are impossible to get rid of once they are on your tail.

- The wine-puzzle in the twilight-zone... in the 'real' version, there is no service bell, so this was be last thing I would think about when having to get some wine. First on my mind was the often mentioned wine-cellar, but it doesn't exist in the twilight-zone version afaik.

- The fact that the twilight-zone layout is different from the real one. This is probably a simple matter of taste, but the separation of the two areas of the mansion by longer tunnels seemed unnecessary to me. Perhaps it has something to do with the positioning of the areas I haven't reached, but I think it would be cooler if the 'dead' version was *exactly* the same as the real one, except in a different state (either good or bad) or in a different time.
Add to this the fact that you fall into that hole to transition, and it's ruined for me... perhaps because I kept visualising the two identical areas situated on top of eachother in some level editing utility or whatever.
I think it would be cooler:
* if the transition was not continuous, but featured a white or black blanking out/fade.
And
* if you ended up in the same location in the twilight-zone, that you were in in the real version rather than somewhere else.

- Not really telling the player what to do. For example, the intended reason you get the key from Emilie is, I assume, so you can enter the Lady's chambers, open the white panel, enter the back area and get started with the real stuff. However, you also stumble upon the rotting corpse as you enter, and nothing is done with it, you just have to ignore it. Of course, I thought the murder seemed like quite an important thing, and kept looking for something to relate it to instead of just finding an exit.


I really admire the people who finished this mission without understanding any of the instructions. I certainly wouldn't be able to do that, heck I haven't finished it now. Having to constantly avoid the horde of guards on the twilight-zone upper floor has frustrated me to death. And then I want to get the 2nd 'mask' and I appear to be faced with a rope-arrow climbing puzzle??? (I don't see how else I could reach that high, no other room in the area seems to offer upward access.

What I did like:
- The drunken guards (though the one with the pot becomes instantly sober once he sees you).
- The girl that runs in the garden and disappears behind the pillar (very nicely timed, genuinely spooky)
- The guard with the hump, and the ghost-guard that walks like an apebeast.
- The spiderwebbed bodies
- The bulletin-board arguing between the guy in charge and anonymous
- The mirror effect for the guy with the flowers (it looks quite convincing from behind, only when you get up close and to the side do you really notice it's fake).
- The view as you enter that ruined hall before the graveyard, pushing open the rusty gate... and then the spooky voice speaks! Great moment.
- The excellent writing (only played the English version, though clicking through some of the French files they seems great too).
- The bouncing skull chasing 'death'(?)


I just wish people would do more logical level layouts. Some of the places I've seen in FM's would be a nightmare to live in.

gaetane on 8/7/2003 at 15:10

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UnConeD,
Personally I prefer, as many players, to play in mode " Ghost " which is more close to Thief's universe in my opinion. It is certain that it is less easy and than it asks for a certain rigour and for patience but it is highly more fascinating.
If you tear away hair on this mission, do not insist and let it fall, it is not certainly made for you.
And also it is not in my custom to take the player by the hand to show him obviously secret passages and various switchs hidden in the mission, because in this kind of mission I miss royally and I believe that many players think as me.
However, enigmae are maybe difficult to resolve, it is a thing which I did not realize by creating mission and I am sorry about it.
Please, this forum is not a court, if I make missions it is to amuse people, not to torment them.
If mission does not please you abandon it, do not continue to play the masochists (it is not going to stay in you any more of hair), and this spite which I feel in your message I leave it aside because I find that many of your criticisms are inequitable.
Ps: I hope that in spite of my very bad English you will have understood me.

Nightwalker on 8/7/2003 at 20:39

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I'm afraid there isn't an FM that could be made that would satisfy everyone, so don't take the criticism personally Gaëtane. Most of us have found it a beautiful and wonderfully creative FM that was a pleasure to play. Merci! :)

Ieldra on 9/7/2003 at 08:50

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About the mission criticism upthread: There are two points I agree with. The first is the way to find the doll. It is really hard. You don't really expect a secret behind a secret. The ghost as a hint is a very good idea - very atmospheric and I like it very much, but because of the "get out of sight" reflex many people have when playing Thief, the fact that the ghost only appears once and that you can only see it imperfectly through those boards makes it less of a hint than it should be. Any way to have a clearer sight to that ghost and what it does would have been nice.
The second is the wine riddle. The crux here are unusally shaped frobbable objects that appear where you usually wouldn't go because there are hostile people you can't remove. There should be either some stronger hint that the bell is frobbable or the people should face more away from where you enter.
For both of these items I'd say: for a secret, such a way of hiding is perfectly ok, but not for something that is required to complete the mission.

Having said all that, perhaps I should add that all in all, Emilie Victor is one of the best FMs I have played (out of 25 or so so far). The story and the characters (esp. Emilie Victor) come across as absolutely enthralling, which is especially remarkable because of the limited way story and character can be presented in the Dark engine. I have played most of the famous T2 FMs, but this one is only the second I would give a 10/10 for story content.

BTW: Gaetane, if you ever think of adding something, voice acting for Emilie would be in the first place in my wish list. And perhaps a clearer picture of what Emilie wants to achieve with her plot. [SPOILER]As I have experienced it, it is part revenge and part depriving Deloran of the means to meddle with her any further - but it's unclear exactly how the latter is accomplished. It isn't as if any of the removed items removed any knowledge from him. Or is it?[/SPOILER]

jbd on 9/7/2003 at 17:16

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The bell confused me, not because it was in a hard to reach spot, but because...

[SPOILER]If it is supposed to summon a servant, why does it cause the servant to walk away and go somewhere else? It would have been more logical to have the bell near where the servant goes to drop off the wine. It could be hanging next to the door so it wouldn't be difficult to reach.

Also, the ghost hint probably could have been more direct -- just show the ghost walking right through the painting.[/SPOILER]