BlackKnight on 12/11/2001 at 20:51
OH MY GOD
now, tell me, how the hell are any of us supposed to feel good about OUR missions??? <img src="graemlins/sweat.gif" border="0" alt="[Sweat]" />
Ok, so we need to use it as inspiration! In THEORY, I understand how you did some of that stuff...in theory. Great job, now to get past the first 20 minutes and finish it!
DarkRaven on 12/11/2001 at 21:11
Believe me, I'm racking my brain right now just trying to think of ways to keep the player guessing and entertained in my FM. Which was one of the excelent parts of T7C it did keep me guessing most of the way, my only letdown was the linearity of even those plot twists which hurt the replayability. I'd equate it to watching the Sixth Sense, a second time. Great plot twist but on the second pass, what do you do now that you did't try/see before.
Wynne on 13/11/2001 at 00:04
Good grief... I'm all for constructive criticism, but this was just plain unfair.
First of all, this is Saturnine's FIRST EVER mission.
Second of all, if you didn't feel there was atmosphere, then... well, that's just pathetic bad taste.
Third, the comparisons to IM are nothing short of ridiculous. IM was done by Sledge, who already had a well-polished, great FM under his belt. Saturnine had never done any level editing before in his entire life, I must point out. IM's gameplay was great, but it was pretty much the same thing as always if you look at it as critically as you're looking at T7C--find the item, etc. It was unique in terms of replayability, yes... but its atmosphere/plot were certainly not on the epic scale of the Seventh Crystal. IM relied on what you accused Seventh Crystal of to help make its mark--pretty graphics and special effects. And it took the easy road for atmosphere... undead. If you design a solid mission, and put undead in it, it's almost sure to have atmosphere. T7C took the tougher road, relying not on the naturally creepy undead AI at all.
Fourth, you must not have been paying any attention or reading any books if you thought T7C was lacking in story. That's one area in which it far urpassed even the sublime IM. There is so much going on in that mission that it makes my head hurt. Did you even notice the subtle, mysterious subplots Sat came up with, like <span style="background-color:#000080"><font color="#202080">the fact that the woman from the intro mentioned she was involved in the story of the 7th Crystal, and then as you play there is evidence of her continually taunting Garrett throughout the night by doing things he couldn't?</font></span>
Fifth, Act 3 wasn't supposed to be a separate mission. It was made separate for space considerations... and it would've been a lot more interesting if not for technical problems, because if they'd gotten it to work, the <span style="background-color:#000080"><font color="#202080">rosary would've carried over from Act 2 only if you'd gotten it--otherwise the spiders would've attacked if they saw you.</font></span> That's how it was supposed to be.
Quite frankly, you get out of this mission what you put into it, and I think it's obvious that you didn't put a damn thing into the Seventh Crystal if you think it's all pretty graphics and cool effects.
I don't care if you want to criticize, but you were just plain bitching there. At heart, you're just prejudiced against this because you're attached to IM. Perfectly understandable, especially because IM is so great, but it's not fair to Saturnine for you to put T7C down like this. It doesn't deserve that kind of talk. The fact that it's this good from such an inexperienced author is nothing short of amazing--I liked it even better than IM, although IM runs an incredibly close second. And it's not a mission war that makes me pissed off at your attitude, either--my friend Loanstar did Garrett in both missions, and Saturnine himself did the briefing pictures for IM. I can't make you change your mind, but I'm not going to hold back on speaking mine, either. I feel that you are being entirely unjust in your judgments and comparisons. IM and T7C are worlds apart in their strengths, and you're putting apples up against oranges.
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Wynne ]</p>
Sarik on 13/11/2001 at 01:00
Saturnine = Genuis
And you can quote me on that because you all care <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
And this is one of the FEW missions I've played from beginning to end without going in DromEd. Grats on getting me to do that too <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
I don't like numbers, so I'll use relative meanings . . . And from my vast collection of FM's, I call this one . . . "way above average"
architecture: amazing.<br />technical effects: amazing.<br />story: amazing.<br />cutscenes: amazing and (as far as I'm concerned) the greatest bit of the game.<br />voices: Amazing. Loanstar, duh.<br />excitement: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">Spoiler:</font><div style="background-color:#000080"><font color="#202080">The alter behind the grave most certainly. It was only for a flash second, but it was reminiscent to bot's in a disco bar</font></div></blockquote> Besides that: amazing.
tilt: amazing.
outcome: amazing.
I'm really nice. That one mission that got 1/2 bronze was more on the level of "okay and stilted" but certainly not "mediocre and dumb"
<br />(who am I to review anyway? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> )
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Sarik ]</p>
Keeper of Metal and Gold on 13/11/2001 at 01:12
I wouldn't give Seventh Crystal Gold either, but I'd give it a 10 or so (Gold is 11), much higher than little 8 (little compared to what it deserves, I think). I actually prefect city missions to mansion one's, but nothing detracted from my 7th experience except some boundstrigger bugs at first and then a couple bad textures, but that's all - I liked the gameplay and atmosphere a lot, especially the cool feeling moonlight and great shadowy feeling everywhere! And the story is the best I've ever played, the best!
So, from KoMaG - 10 Hammers
DarkRaven on 13/11/2001 at 01:32
Wynne, Saturnine,
In response, I want to say: it was never my intent to complain at all about T7C. Yes I stated that I agreed with DarkWarrior, -Somewhat-<br />Personally I think the atmospere was excelent, I just thought that it did have some room for improvement via a few ambient sounds placed better. I didn't want to compare it to IM because IM went a whole different direction than T7C in regards to atmosphere and playability. I was only pointing out things I also personally felt weren't as perfect as the rest of the mission was, and that was just the ending and only because it was so straight-on to the mission complete, not that it was lacking atmosphere or enjoyment at any point. Actually I needed an underwear check after that ending(!) and no other Thief level has ever done that to me, well maybe Bonehoard when I first started playing it. (And I have been a longtime player, I worked with one of the LGS Developers relatives, a couple miles from LGS's office and had heard of/seen/played ThiefTDP before it ever hit shelves, manohman were those the days!!) No way was I saying anything was bad about T7C, just that it suffered from some very minor things that I thought could be improved, didn't want at all to be seen as attacking Saturnine or anyone on the team. I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say about T7C. ::smiles shyly::
Sarik on 13/11/2001 at 01:35
[EDIT: THE UBB FORUMS I'M USED TO USE [q] AS QUOTE]
These are my PERSONAL opinions. I had nothign to do with the game itself, incase you wonder <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Before I criticize criticism, first I want to know where you (Darkwarrior) came from. I will not judge your review by the fact that your date is only sep 2001, because it's irrelevent and you could have just switched names.
Quote:
For all of you saying this is gold hammer stuff, it isn't<hr></blockquote>
People don't like the hammer system for exactly this reason: ONE reviewers opinion is what the missions score is based on. YOU are not the almighty reviewing god, and nor are we. So before you begin to accuse anyone of being the holy god of gold hammerniss, you are not the holy god of ungold hammerniss. Does that make sense? Read it many times because it sure as hell didn't make much sense to me.
Quote:
I have to say the gameplay in this mission sucks<hr></blockquote>
All claims must be backed up. If you will rant for two para's on how it doesn't deserve a gold hammer, it's just beating around the bush. Why does the gameplay suck?
Quote:
No atmosphere is built up in either of the two playable missions<hr></blockquote>
First of all, act 2 IS a mansion. The atmosphere of a mansion should be judged on architecture, texture, object placement, and correct light placement for good gameplay, as far as I'm concerned. Nowadays, something has good atmosphere if it's an undead mission with cobwebs and cryps and whatnot. A city with nobles looks that way; a city with peasents looks that way. A mansion is just . . . a mansion. As far as act 3 is concerned, well, I think it did a fairly good job. The chapel in the back was especially nice.
Quote:
Saturtine's mansion is just the stereotypical key hunt and find the secret switch (sound familiar from Thief 2?). <hr></blockquote>
this is bitching. It had MUCH more to it than that.
Quote:
When I play an FM, I want to feel like I am there.<hr></blockquote>
if you're looking for real-world realism, than play unreal <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> (Hmm . . . ironic?)
Quote:
Act 3 was just boring<hr></blockquote>
the <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">Spoiler:</font><div style="background-color:#000080"><font color="#202080">disco'bots were nice.</font></div></blockquote> Wait! I think I'll pass that to mattel or something.
Quote:
but I'm afraid that most of you would get angry if this mission didn't get its "earned" gold hammer because I know it doesn't deserve it<hr></blockquote>
Yes, of course, oh godly one.
My religious debating is coming forth through unfair fan-mission criticism. sorry. [EDIT: SERIOUSLY NO PUN INTENDED)
Quote:
Inverted Manse deserved it because I actually got deeply into the story, not to mention the fact that the atmosphere built up was nothing short of impeccable.<hr></blockquote>
Manse was very good. It was also made by a person who has made previous missions before (CoTR was a good mission too . . . You could tell it really was just more of a "first-mission" but we all start there. Me? Well . . . Let's just not go there. It's a weak spot of mine.)
Okay, now for some of my own biases.
Architecture: [10] Agreed. I'm better at telling the difference between good city architecture than mansion architecture, but I found it all to be all well and good. Like every mission before it (including Manse) there were areas where it could've been better.
Atmosphere: [3] Disagreed. How you could give
anything this low of a grade besides a 16*16*16 jorge cube awes me more than my oppinion of the atmosphere itself.
Gameplay: [4] Disagreed. The basement I found to be especially difficult. There were plenty of hiding spots, but not too much that you could just run around naked across the fields without being seen. <br />...I am an expert at metaphores.
Story[7] Agreed, more or less. I felt the ending (Act 4) gave the story an almost unexpected twist.
Tech-Effects[10] Agreed, most certainly.
Right, and everything else was pretty much the same. These are MY personal opinions, and, of course, the mission should not be judged on what I say (But you might as well think it's a good mission, right? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )
FOOTNOTE: ENJOY MY DRY HUMOR.
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Sarik ]</p>
Darkwarrior on 13/11/2001 at 02:12
The REASON for the gameplay is that KEYHUNTING WHICH I SAID 8000 TIMES is tedious and boring. Jesus I only said it like 5 times. And searching for secret doors? Duh! That's no fun! Atmosphere? I counted 4 different ambient sounds in the whole mission. That is the key to atmoshere in most missions. I did say the architecture was good in all the missions. As far as a 16x16x16 jorge cube being the only mission without atmosphere, why don't you play something like, oh, The Enterprise? My definition of atmosphere is that it gives you a feeling of where you are. I take back my comment on the mansion not having atmosphere, but the crypt? sorry. I won't budge on that non-existant.
I will say this: Saturtine has done a remarkable job for his first time. In fact, it is by far the best "first timer" ever made. But not a gold hammer.
(By the way this isn't written in an angry tone-just slightly irritated at the beginning and slackening up towards the end. I am pretty open-minded <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Darkwarrior ]</p>
Darkwarrior on 13/11/2001 at 02:33
Darkwarrior's re-review:
I have played the mission more thoroughly. At first, I got bored in the mansion from trying to find the key and rushed through. Anyway here it is:
Architecture: 10<br />Gameplay: 5<br />Atmosphere: 5(still don't think there is atmosphere in Act 3[9+0=9/2=4.5])<br />Techs: 10<br />Sneak:6<br />Story: 7. Ending was bad.<br />+5.<br />thats 48. 48/6=8. so, still the same, just a bit higher.<br />well i hope that makes you yell less. I still don't think it should get a gold one...i bet some taffer will write a review and give it one anyway. It shouldnt be just *given* away.
And as for IM being inferior in story and originality, you can find the crack in my a** and kiss it because that ain't true. What is so original about a mansion and a crypt? Both of those have been done numerous times. At least the manse had some unique cavern parts and then, how everyone was dead except you. That was what was so different and scary about IM.
No, I'm not really attatched to IM, I just used it because some people were saying this should get a gold, which bothered me a bit. So I voiced my opinion even though I knew I would be hated for it. In fact, my favorite FM is Benny's Dead by The Gingerbread Man. Then of course my fm. Just kidding. I doubt my FM will come close to T7C or any of the greats...I am working on a briefing and everything all by myself. I just want to see how I compare--I know one thing: my FM will be the scariest ever so...
Sorry. I almost always say something about my FM on forums and then I get carried away. : <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[NoNo]" /> : I have to teach myself no to do that. I am too lazy to delete everything up there. It may because I have ADD (attention defecit disorder) and my parents think riddelin is bad so I kind of get lots of zeroes. But, I have a big imagination so it is kind of cool to space out and then pretend about things...
AGGHHH i will stop now. Sorry for the big post.
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Darkwarrior ]</p>
Keeper of Metal and Gold on 13/11/2001 at 04:55
Don't worry, Darkwarrior, no one single reviewer can just give a mission gold. I forget the exact process, but IIRC two independent reviews must be submitted which both give it gold, then it has to be reviewed by TTLG staff which must also give approval, THEN the mission gets gold!
I can understand that key hunting might not be fun, nor searching for hidden doors or whatnot. I guess I just got lucky because I always just kept finding all the keys I needed and just stumbled into all the right areas at the right times, so I experienced no "hunting" pains myself <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .
I think your score review is mostly good, but here is my variation:
Architecture: 11 (Gold)<br />Gameplay: 7<br />Atmostphere: 8 (I LOVE the blue moonlight - ambient sound indeed could have been better, but they're not bad, and the "lack" of atmosphere in the little crypt mission can't take away all the positive atmosphere of the main mission<br />Techs: 11 (Gold)<br />Sneak: ?<br />Story: 10 (This story really drew me in more than any other FM so far except Calendra's Cistern, and I also liked the ending!)
47/5 = 9.5 Hammers <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <br />bonus .5 Hammer for truly excellent voice acting!
10 Hammers (not Gold, but very high!)
