Fidcal on 8/3/2007 at 19:32
Phew! Playing on Shadow level it took me over 6 hours of game-time (probably more like 10) and I only just got 2063 loot yet there is nearly another 1000 somewhere. Never did find any way into the Hammerite warehouse I could see from the air ducts so maybe more stuff in there. In the end I was forced to KO the AI in the kitchen to get the last 50 which I didn't want to do. Only found one secret - the nice heart shaped lockbox.
Those keys were a weakness of the mission I think. For me there was no reason for their positions that I know. I studied readables but although they conveyed something of the story (in a hazy kinda way) I don't recall getting much in the way of clues (apart from the statuette.) The nearest I read about keys was unsigned (like most of the readables) and just said "the master gave us keys" but that didn't help me. I would rather have read "the master went insane and scattered the keys all over." than nothing at all. Was there any reason for the keys being scattered on different floors around the mansion and elsewhere?
Oh I must also mention the 'unfair' invisible light spot just outside the door in the Namez courtyard I mentioned earlier. Having doused the torch there is no sign of any light on any nearby surface but one is suddenly brightly illuminated without warning. Step one way: dark. Sidestep: bright! A forgotten hacklight?
But still I finished with minimal help and overall it's a top ten FM in my list. (I've got about 20 FMs crammed in my top 10 !) What a work of art! Very immersive and lots of places had what I call a sense of presence where you get moments of 'being there' - especially in the Namez mansion. Is that lunatic raving a known speech from T2 OMs? Or a new recording? Excellent! It's all excellent. I have Part 2 ready to go next session which I'm looking forward to. Fantastique! :thumb:
DrK on 9/3/2007 at 01:06
Yeah I've already been told several times about my keyhunt... :sweat:
there are hints but they are rather difficult to understand. when you read Lord Namez diary, at a moment there are things like "the one is earth" "the third is set blahblah" or "the 4 lead to the sky". These are references to the keys he had hidden, but he's gone mad so... :cheeky:
Ghosting this fm as you play it for the first time, you must be crazy... ;)
About the hacklight you wrote about, there is nothing left/forgotten here. I think it's the moonlight or a distant light coming out from a window or something. In some places I often had several little lights which overall would create some kind of a "big" one. sorry for that.
Namez talking is nothing new, you can hear it from Mr smith in the prison of Shoalsgate, some kind of a freak talking in his cell.
That sense of presence you're talking about is exactly what I love in the OMs and a few FMs, so I tried to create some of it :)
Fidcal on 9/3/2007 at 07:33
Wow! now that is what I call obscure - not because of the clue itself but it was not clear to what it referred. I had already studied that (in fact I print out any extensive readables especially non-carryable ones) and decided the passage referred to the elements : 'fire' (burns wood, unlock the metal, ie, heat melts metal); 'liquid' = water; 'ash' = earth; and 'sky' is air. So thought they must refer to talismen or something later in the mission or even a later mission. I made the right deductions but didn't relate it to keys. It's a clever clue and would have worked with a bit of rewording. They would still be fairly hard to find but the player would know what they are trying to work out. It will be interesting to read through this thread when (and if!) I finish Mission 2. You're not alone; I got chastised for a riddle in my own FM.:cheeky:
I'm not a die-hard ghoster :angel: which means I will KO or use water arrows but only if I must. :ebil: The occasional discrete KO seems to have more significance and power (bit like cursing really.) It feels more real to me than creating an empty ghost town of bodies with mass-coshing. But some FMs I have to. Your FM had so much interest and so many dark corners and places to hide it was (mostly) fun dodging everybody! I don't think any mission has kept me so focused so consistently and so continuously as this one. :thumb:
Fidcal on 11/3/2007 at 12:32
In Mission 2 I've been to Artemis' room and all round the 'friendly' area and the mechanists' area and got the tunnel 21 key but now I'm just going round and round without further progress. I can find no key to the door in the inn which I think goes down to the sewers. I have found no sword, soul heart nor either of the two keepers. Hard to know what to search for in this thread without risking spoilers. Studied the readables over and over but can't find any clue. :confused: Just need a hint please.
DrK on 11/3/2007 at 12:47
[SPOILER]You got the tunnel 21 key, but I guess you didn't enter tunnel 21 yet. Go to the south of the safe aera, past the inn. There is a little canal, with above it a bridge with a cop who eventually yell at the drunk guy. Go in the water and somewhere in the canal there is a locked door ;)[/SPOILER]
Fidcal on 11/3/2007 at 14:08
Funny, that's the first place I tried after I got back with the key but couldn't find anything. Dead end I thought. Yet I seemed to recall before I thought I saw something then thought I imagined it. Must be going nuts. I'll check again later. Thanks.
Fidcal on 11/3/2007 at 17:42
Can't believe I missed that second time round - it's slightly recessed and I ran down there and thought 'dead end'! A couple more steps and I'd have seen it. Now I've gone it its the most spooky part! Those footsteps keep freaking me out!:eek: :thumb:
Fidcal on 14/3/2007 at 22:20
Didn't quite finish Mission 2 because I'm about 222 loot short and exhausted. But it is another excellent mission spoilt only by the difficulty of finding tiny unknown mission-critical items with an entire town to search without good clues that I recall. I had to give up and search this thread for help for a couple of things even after searching brick by brick for I knew not what for hours. That dampened what is one of the finest missions I've played.
I think also lockpicking was too long. I almost ghosted it but one or two places here and there made it impossible I think to do it totally without resorting to the cosh. A few minor adjustments would have made it possible but not too big a deal. No, the only serious problem is that blind searching. I like something to work with so I know what I'm looking for and roughly where. I did not see the relevance of many of the readables so do not know if they contained obscure hints that were beyond me. Why the ripped out pages?
I loved the 'pseudo-keepers' place and the dungeon and there was a beautiful secret room atop a catwalk in the unsecure zone. Well, lots of places and views were fantastic; everywhere was great. And the sewers were unnerving and very real. And the inn was wonderful - best I think I've seen. And those pillars. And the people generally everywhere - little extra motions and speeches to add realism - even little things like hands behind the back reading or warming themselves in front of a fire. And... well I could go on and on...
The story itself is excellent but the story telling (conveying the story to the player) perhaps vague and confusing. Probably partly intended to be vague but I didn't really enjoy too much trying to piece it together. I think I got the general idea though.
Two of the very best amazing missions ever. Looking forward to the third. Hopefully a homing device will be included to track down the elusive switches and keys! :thumb:
DrK on 15/3/2007 at 00:24
Well thanks a lot Fidcal for your compliments. :D
These were my first attempts at game design, so they are far from being perfect. In fact, I wanted to make them alive, but I realize I didn't put as many effort in gameplay as I should have. I wanted to add interest by the several ways on roof, little corners where to hide, and places to explore. But the objects were too well hidden without enough clues to find them.
I put feel as a priority, but I have to find a good balance between feel and gameplay. For example, the ripped pages you're talking about : they don't give any kind of clues, but they add to the realism/life of the situation.
For example, the mecanist wrote his journal, and at a moment he was kinda panicked, with doubt and all, and wrote it down on his journal. Then the next day, as he regain self-confidence, he decided to torn out what he wrote about his doubts, and sent it in the nearby bin, to show the Builder he still believe in him, hopping for being forgiven about losing his faith. That's why there is a journal and a torn out page nearby : realism of the situation, nothing else. I don't like to find journal in FMs which end by things like "Oh crap I hear a noise behind me. I'm hit ! Ouch it hurts..." :cheeky:
With everything related to the AI or the readables, I asked myself "how would act this kind of character in this situation, according to his belief, his story, his social rank, etc...". I think this is the best way to create life in a fm. :)
And the story is still vague, as I want players to understand the whole thing later in the campaign. So when you play a fm here and there you understand the minimum, but when you'll play the whole campaign in a row you'll have a more interesting, general story. ;)
Fidcal on 15/3/2007 at 07:11
Well instead of being far from perfect they are pretty close to perfect DrK! And you certainly made them 'alive' - the street life especially but everywhere given the limits of Thief and the difficulties that worked well for me. (And is also why I myself do not go in for mass-coshing)
I meant to emphasise before but forgot that all my comments were just feedback and not complaints. I'm really trying to learn myself as I got similar 'feedback' on my missions yet I added lots of extra clues!
Yes, I had wondered if some things were just to add realism like the torn pages. I did wonder that at the time. Problem is the player is likely to think they are devices to emphasise the importance of something and expect a clue or new direction. It is very hard to know what will work and what will not; what will be taken as 'ambience'. I've been reading through this thread now I've 'finished' and see several players wondered about that zombie banging behind the door. While playing I myself wondered about that but then decided it was good ambience as there were several areas, walls, etc where I could hear undead 'beyond'. So it is really impossible in my view to not have misunderstandings when there is complexity and innovation. But like the torn pages, these things at worst only puzzle and do not block the player so I say go for it.
I've been searching for other ways to convey the story and beginning to think it best to reduce text to the minimum and maybe emphasise the clues but I just don't know yet. I too don't like to read 'I hear a noise behind me!' Oh yeah! like I'll write that down! But I also don't like 'you skip over several irrelevant pages' which is an immersion-killer for me. I think pages before and after can be assumed; missing pages in the middle is hard to see how to handle. Anyway, I'm considering never going over one page ever again and using just art (like Digi suggested elsewhere) and then pictures can be added and torn pages shown graphically. The pure text can be retained for translation.
Yes, I'm studying some missions for inspiration but I don't think I'll ever be able to reproduce the visual architecture and layout quality of Rocksbourg as it seems to be a natural talent I don't have. But I'm gonna try to improve with better textures. Rocksbourg is a real inspiration! :thumb:
