Zechs Zero on 2/3/2009 at 20:43
I didn't find the T2 storyline as tight as it could have been, by itself but especially on comparison of what was established with T1. Here's little details about what turned me off, and what little could have taken to get it right for me.
The hammerites are almost extinct, it's mechanists everywhere.
Make the mechanists the upper class in hammerites hierarchy: this way you can use them both in levels; the mechanists can then be used in inner sanctums as an elite force of Karras (possibly unstunnable).
Truart is revealed to be working for Karras.
This "revelation" was so obvious on multiple levels. Not only because of notes and dialogue addressing the Mechanists as the one villain, but because in T1 it was the hammers themselves running Cragscleft prison. I would have just put Truart, Hagen and Mosley as hammer hierarchies fighting over the administration of justice: then they die one at a time, and you get your conspiracy.
It took 1 mission for Garrett to straighten up Ramirez: against Truart, much more time.
Evidence against Truart is found as soon as mission 3, even though Garrett could have just get it over with and go to Stuart Estate and take whatever he wanted. Why all the inaction and lost clues? I say, have the police try to get Garrett a couple of times, and then let's go straight to revenge.
Karras prepares the apocalypse of mankind.
What a boring supervillain clichè: the Trickster posed an equal menace, without just waving a gun around. One alternative would have been to support the idea that all nature dying around the City was to pave the way for a new industrialized mankind, unable to live without machines. Of course the new humanity thing is already present: what makes the difference, is to ditch the "I will kill you all" part.
Garrett champions the fight against Karras.
To be a hero for the whole game pushes him out of character: here, he is not just heroic in the midst of danger, he's crusading against Karras long before knowing his plans. For one, I would have put the Masks mission BEFORE the Kidnap one: it's his life of thief that should draw him into adventure, not the opposite.
You want a turning point? I'll give you a turning point.
How about this: Karras was watching everything through Garrett's eye. He actually used him to his advantage all the time, up to a good 80% of the game. Now that should make you motivated enough to finish the game and kick his ass!
jtr7 on 2/3/2009 at 21:18
Most of your points are generally understood with regard to Garrett's apparent slowness. Yes, the player catches on early. Yes, the game needed refining and we will forever wonder how the devs were going to do that in light of the planned Thief 2 Gold, which would've added more missions, but didn't seem to edit the story down at all.
Karras draws on many real life parallels and was "simply" a heretic who thrust aside the stifling conservatism of the Order of the Hammer. He didn't wave his doomsday weapon around, but the devs did in repeated texts and voice-overs. Garrett and the player heard it often, while The City, and even most of Karras's followers knew naught all the way through the story. He even planned to destroy his own body once he made sure the Builder's Paradise was fully-established. His splintering off the Order and gathering followers is a common occurrence in many religions' histories and is happening right now.
The Trickster wasn't going to wipe out humanity, but bring it back from a technological age, to The City's equivalent of a Stone Age. It was more about destroying technology, and no he didn't wave his weapon around, just Maw Beasts, but he let others do it for him, and it wasn't waved in front of the player's face nearly as often.
But really, if we could get the Thief 2 Gold project in motion and keep it going...
Meisterdieb on 4/3/2009 at 15:41
Quote Posted by Zechs Zero
The hammerites are almost extinct, it's mechanists everywhere.Make the mechanists the upper class in hammerites hierarchy: this way you can use them both in levels; the mechanists can then be used in inner sanctums as an elite force of Karras (possibly unstunnable).
I'm not sure I follow what you hoped to gain with that.
I would have preferred if you had more Hammerites in Thief 2 and some (working) interaction between Hammers and Mechanists.
Quote Posted by Zechs Zero
Truart is revealed to be working for Karras.This "revelation" was so obvious on multiple levels. Not only because of notes and dialogue addressing the Mechanists as the one villain, but because in T1 it was the hammers themselves running Cragscleft prison. I would have just put Truart, Hagen and Mosley as hammer hierarchies fighting over the administration of justice: then they die one at a time, and you get your conspiracy.
Yeah, that probably could have been handled better, but then again Garrett doesn't really seem to catch on to such nuances ( see Constantantine in T1).
And the way I saw it Truart was working WITH Karras, not for him. And I think he thought he was only using Karras for his own gains...
Quote Posted by Zechs Zero
It took 1 mission for Garrett to straighten up Ramirez: against Truart, much more time.Evidence against Truart is found as soon as mission 3, even though Garrett could have just get it over with and go to Stuart Estate and take whatever he wanted. Why all the inaction and lost clues? I say, have the police try to get Garrett a couple of times, and then let's go straight to revenge.
Well, with Ramirez Garrett only wanted simple revenge - rob him blind. But with Truart, Garrett hoped to gain more with blackmailing him.
Quote Posted by Zechs Zero
Karras prepares the apocalypse of mankind.What a boring supervillain clichè: the Trickster posed an equal menace, without just waving a gun around. One alternative would have been to support the idea that all nature dying around the City was to pave the way for a new industrialized mankind, unable to live without machines. Of course the new humanity thing is already present: what makes the difference, is to ditch the "I will kill you all" part.
Full ack with the clichèd "destroy the world" villain. But at that point in the game I was so fed up with the Soulforge level, that clichè wasn't my top priority anymore.
Quote Posted by Zechs Zero
Garrett champions the fight against Karras.To be a hero for the whole game pushes him out of character: here, he is not just heroic in the midst of danger, he's crusading against Karras long before knowing his plans. For one, I would have put the Masks mission BEFORE the Kidnap one: it's his life of thief that should draw him into adventure, not the opposite.
True, Garrett isn't the natural hero. But he isn't doing it for the greater good. TO me it seemd that for about the first half of the game he just tries to save his own hide and get some leverage over Truart.
But the question remains: why- if the game is about a thief- do we have to save the world all the time...
Quote Posted by Zechs Zero
You want a turning point? I'll give you a turning point.How about this: Karras was watching everything through Garrett's eye. He actually used him to his advantage all the time, up to a good 80% of the game. Now that should make you motivated enough to finish the game and kick his ass!
Now that would have been a big twist - and it would have seriously pissed off Garrett. And it also would have made the second half of the game plausible - as Garrett is (again) only in for his revenge.
(plus, you'd also have to play without the mechanical eyes from that on - or find a way to fix it)
Zechs Zero on 7/3/2009 at 16:32
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
I'm not sure I follow what you hoped to gain with that.
I would have preferred if you had more Hammerites in Thief 2 and some (working) interaction between Hammers and Mechanists.
Well, my idea about having them on the same side was a way to have them both in the now mechanists-only areas. As continuity with T1.
Thanks for the answers!
Meisterdieb on 8/3/2009 at 15:00
Ok, I see.
And Karras would have worked on his conspiracy from within the Hamerite/ Mechanist order and not from without. So essentially nothing big would have changed (?).
Seeing that I prefer the red uniform of the Hammers and the hammer over the Mechanist outfit, I would have liked that.
jtr7 on 8/3/2009 at 22:12
I don't know how Karras could have pulled that off, but that's intriguing. Over 90% of the game and plot would not exist as we know it.
Zechs Zero on 9/3/2009 at 00:18
It's plausible once you retcon that hammerites expelled Karras in the first place. Instead, make him rise in power after the Trickster's attack as the avatar of the Builder. Personally however I would leave the genocide out: just have them attack nature, to make man an industrial creature.
I think it would make a nice parallel with T1's story: first you see the rotten in the trickster, and then in the builder.
ManicMan on 9/3/2009 at 10:30
Intresting ideas.... Basicly, here's mine on your points
Quote Posted by Zechs Zero
The hammerites are almost extinct, it's mechanists everywhere.Make the mechanists the upper class in hammerites hierarchy: this way you can use them both in levels; the mechanists can then be used in inner sanctums as an elite force of Karras (possibly unstunnable).
In T1, A Large amount of the Hammers are wiped out. While they are meant to be big, i always get the feeling they are probebly only for that country or area. Alot of people do not like them and they seam to be having some trouble duing T1. After a large amount of that kind of group is wiped out, they would have trouble getting back to full strenght, and if we do work on the church they are based on as well as what we see of them in T1, they wouldn't want to change or allow it, there for when Karras, having been in the Background of T1 anyway, wanted all this new changes, they wouldn't have liked it at all. Of course, Karras found an easy way to get the strenght back up because 1) The Hammers aren't liked, so Create a group that is, 2) In T1, While most hammers are true to the core, some know the problems and wouldn't mind change. Karras oftered them that change and better state of living (and probebly, higher pay). Look at the souce material, the christian church and what happened? groups spilt off, some more liked then others etc.. Maybe the removed 'Rise of Karras' Mission would have shown what happened in the time which i always believed as about a year or two, between T1 and T2.
Quote:
Truart is revealed to be working for Karras.This "revelation" was so obvious on multiple levels. Not only because of notes and dialogue addressing the Mechanists as the one villain, but because in T1 it was the hammers themselves running Cragscleft prison. I would have just put Truart, Hagen and Mosley as hammer hierarchies fighting over the administration of justice: then they die one at a time, and you get your conspiracy.
As pointed out, i think i missed that. Truart is working WITH Karras for his own private gain. Simple as that. While he very much cares about the Family name, I always felt he had something against the Hammers. He wouldn't have been at cragscleft, but maybe he was a member of the order, or maybe, not allowed to join? Not sure at all. No one liked the hammers and Cragscleft at all, it was a run down flea pit that once there, even if you served your time, you would probebly catch illness and die before getting out, and the Barron and other high ups of the city, had no control. They couldn't get there friends out and there enemys in that well, so a 'goverment' controled prision would have been prefect for them, but the Hammers were in the way.. Cue the downfall of the Hammers and the Rise of Truart, something which probebly came in that order. If the Hammers fell, lawlessness would be on the rise a bit more, and Truart could have come in with his idea for a new prison and bingo! The High-ups would be happy to be safer and be able to cut back on some of there guards, also, Truart had the idea to hire alot of old thieves and crocks, thus cutting down on crime again and bring himside a nice and 'Safe' amount of wealth.
Quote:
It took 1 mission for Garrett to straighten up Ramirez: against Truart, much more time.Evidence against Truart is found as soon as mission 3, even though Garrett could have just get it over with and go to Stuart Estate and take whatever he wanted. Why all the inaction and lost clues? I say, have the police try to get Garrett a couple of times, and then let's go straight to revenge.
Ramirez was someone that Garrett had been bother by for some time (as he comments about) but it was a Direct attack that lead him to get his revenge. For truart, you just see the start of it all, but Garrett knows Truart had MORE of a force on his side in the way of the Watch. Garrett decides NOT to bother with them unless he has to, a good move by anyone (and the same he did with Ramirez) and when he had to is when he knows without a doubt that Truart is gunning for him (After raiding his house), but he knows Truart wouldn't be easy man to take out, so, he decides to see what he can find out before a direct attack (Direct is never a good way for a thief), Once he knows Truart really cares about the family name, and he knows some way to blackmail Truart, he trys. Hell, this way, he could get the watch off his back for good, more then if he tried to attack or just killed Truart. He wasn't until eavesdropping that he learns the perfect means to get what he wants. If he just illed Truart, someone else would take his place and more people would be out for him.
Quote:
Karras prepares the apocalypse of mankind.What a boring supervillain clichè: the Trickster posed an equal menace, without just waving a gun around. One alternative would have been to support the idea that all nature dying around the City was to pave the way for a new industrialized mankind, unable to live without machines. Of course the new humanity thing is already present: what makes the difference, is to ditch the "I will kill you all" part.
The Trickster didn't want to kill everyone. He wasn't really a bad guy if you know what i mean.. The trickster wanted to return the world to the dark age where he was the high god and ruler of all. Karras wanted revenge on all those that didn't treat him right. Basicly, he is a little kid that is bullied all his life but for the reason that he is a little prat that worms his way out of everything, and he found a way to get his own back on the world that hated him, by destoring it. If you listern at soulforge, he seams to be turning more and more mad, the most noticeable one is, of course, when he says "All Praise to Karras.. oh, and the Master Builder" where he adds that last bit as a afterthought, showing he is clearly in it for his own reason above all else and can't keep up the pretense anymore. The Trickster wanted to remove machines, Karras wanted to increase Machines. They go together well as both ends without T2 being yet another rehash of the same plot.
Quote:
Garrett champions the fight against Karras.To be a hero for the whole game pushes him out of character: here, he is not just heroic in the midst of danger, he's crusading against Karras long before knowing his plans. For one, I would have put the Masks mission BEFORE the Kidnap one: it's his life of thief that should draw him into adventure, not the opposite.
In a way, Garrett is 'forced' into the Hero roll once again. After find Viktoria, she basicly makes him agree to help and Garrett doesn't seam to be a guy to go against his word, no matter how non-hero like he is. Also, he knows enought about the Magic that Pagan's use to know that when Viktoria says 'the earth keeps your promise for you' that he REALLY shouldn't go against it, also he knows that Karras is out to kill him so he has to get this over with sooner or later. He is fairly forced into the whole thing, with no only his life as a thief being threated by the Watch, but his own life at risk.
Quote:
You want a turning point? I'll give you a turning point.How about this: Karras was watching everything through Garrett's eye. He actually used him to his advantage all the time, up to a good 80% of the game. Now that should make you motivated enough to finish the game and kick his ass!
How would he do that? The eye tech makes sense, it just links it's own wires to the nerves and 'natural' wires in the eye to let Garrett see, but to transmit an image? that would be WAY out of the level of tech shown in the games unless Karras used Magic, but The Trickster was Magic, Karras is Anti-Magic, seeing it at a great evil and wanted it wiped out completely. I can just about see COSAS's 'trasmitting' voices working but images like that? not really, and REALLY Not in such a small item like that... Also, it would remove the threat to Garrett's life that was one of the main points for him taking up the hero role again.. He would have been more forced to go into a sucide mission which would have ended the game pretty quickly.
Meisterdieb on 9/3/2009 at 13:25
Quote Posted by ManicMan
How would he do that? The eye tech makes sense, it just links it's own wires to the nerves and 'natural' wires in the eye to let Garrett see, but to transmit an image? that would be WAY out of the level of tech shown in the games unless Karras used Magic, but The Trickster was Magic, Karras is Anti-Magic, seeing it at a great evil and wanted it wiped out completely. I can just about see COSAS's 'trasmitting' voices working but images like that? not really, and REALLY Not in such a small item like that... Also, it would remove the threat to Garrett's life that was one of the main points for him taking up the hero role again.. He would have been more forced to go into a sucide mission which would have ended the game pretty quickly.
Since we already have the transmitting of images via the scouting orbs, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have Karras have his trojan in there as well. (Actually, for some reason, the "headsets" of COSAS put me of more in terms of "fitting into the world" - although I loved the mission).
That's not to say I agree with the scouting orbs et al; personally I could have done without most of the technomagical stuff - just didn't feel right in Thief IMO.
ManicMan on 9/3/2009 at 13:28
I see your point about the spy orbs, but then, they are very short range and notice how big they are? really, if they need to be that big to be able to send to a recieve like garrett's eye, then for a transmitter to go into that eye as well as a reciever is a bit ify.. but point taken ^_^ I kinda forgot about them for a second.
