T2 storyline, my changes (spoilers)

Solabusca on 12/3/2009 at 06:57

Quote Posted by ManicMan

First, Sorry, i didn't mean Magic in that term, yes, the high priests do have a basic form of magic, but Zombies are really creature brought back with which is often called 'Earth Magic'. Earth Magic is using nature and stuff to do seaminly magical stuff, this would include creation of creatues like Rat Men, and the reanimation of corpses into zombies. This is also a form used by ones like Viktoria to make planets grow and such like, they don't have magic-magic but it is a form of magically energy that reanimates them. Even Viktoria comments on the fact of her powers coming from Nature (Earth Magic of that such is seen in Shaman-ism). The Hammers and such seam to perfer the term 'Priest' more then Mage though they are pretty much the same at times. There powers are holy from the builder himself, not nature and the world.

Where the hell are you getting this stuff? Seriously. There is nothing in the Thief games that indicate ANYTHING that you've said.

We have direct knowledge of what 'mystic elements' or magical forces exist in the Thief universe. I have no clue where you're getting this stuff.

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Yes, Zombies and such are called tools of the trickster (even if he has nothing to do with them) becaise true power of the Builder is one thing, where as what is used by the pagan's and such is a perversion of that kind of power and shouldn't be used, even if for the builders needs.

No, zombies and Haunts are called creatures of the Trickster because the Hammerite church has the Trickster as it's devil-figure. The new God turning the old ones into demons/devils is a standard theme.

There is exactly one instance of a Pagan making use of the undead in the Thief games (TDS), and said pagan is making use of a necromancer's wand.

As to the Hammerites and their proclivities towards the Pagans: the Church has already shown it's tendancy towards cleansing. They've stood against the Pagan horde (see St. Edgar's Eve). They've had their battles. The Mechanists are a new sect of the Builder's church, and are seeking to expand, to show their fervour in crushing the foes of the Master Builder and Father Karras - their zealotry is that of the new. And lest you not forget, Karras himself is especially zealous in this regard.

.j.

ManicMan on 12/3/2009 at 08:02

For the servants: All i seem to see on that page is fan ideas and pictures from FMs.

As for the rest, Okay, I'll admit, I do way too much research into things (though less in the case of Thief) and i take real life views as a base with then changes shown in the universe. For example, I take it that the world thief is in is a Round World that spins to create a gravity force and has 24 hours in a day, even though there isn't anything in the games to say this, or go against this. Sorry, it's my mistake but then i have just stated my reasons. I guess my views of Magic, different 'styles' and such like shouldn't be appled to thief... (Same for the idea of the Hammers being based on the Roman Catholic Diversion of the Christian Church)

I'm always happy to learn for without learning, One is forever as stupid as the day one was born.

jtr7 on 12/3/2009 at 08:24

The pictures on the page I linked to are straight from The Metal Age. Would you like me to list the IN-GAME sources for every example I gave on that page?

To the Arcanophobics:
Shape-shifting wood nymphs, with a non-physical form becoming physical in a whirlwind as well, great physical strength (or an ability to nullify gravity), and an attack involving explosive growth without nutrients to build tissue from...is a scientific possibility?

Quote Posted by Viktoria

"It is true that I am powerful, but I draw my strength from this place (the Maw, not the earth in general).

Where the Mechanists are, I'm not so sure of victory."

Yet...she kicked major ass at Soulforge all by herself, and after sustaining damage from four direct impacts from canonballs, still had the strength to fill the foyer with a lawn, grow a giant 300+ ft./90+ m. beanstalk, create earth crystals, vine arrows, and frogbeast eggs, and force vines to grow deep within the complex, in 5 seconds.

ManicMan on 12/3/2009 at 08:29

since she was a creature of the woods and one of the ways to remove the pagan's was to destory nature, i always got the feeling she was talking about nature more then the Maw since that place (at that point) was SOO full of nature, it was just a bit more magical then a normal forest/garden etc. But I have always shown problems in the way i understood events (though what makes one theory right and another wrong without them becoming fact, i'll never know)... So.. It being the Maw does change ALOT of things for me... makes me wonder why the removal of nature was SOO major....

Solabusca on 12/3/2009 at 08:42

Quote Posted by ManicMan

For the servants: All i seem to see on that page is fan ideas and pictures from FMs.

... from original missions, actually. They're from Eavesdropping.

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As for the rest, Okay, I'll admit, I do way too much research into things (though less in the case of Thief) and i take real life views as a base with then changes shown in the universe. For example, I take it that the world thief is in is a Round World that spins to create a gravity force and has 24 hours in a day, even though there isn't anything in the games to say this, or go against this. Sorry, it's my mistake but then i have just stated my reasons. I guess my views of Magic, different 'styles' and such like shouldn't be appled to thief... (Same for the idea of the Hammers being based on the Roman Catholic Diversion of the Christian Church)

... ONE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER. Go ahead. Assume that it's a round world - there's in-game precedence. Assume that there's a single moon. There's precedence.

But I have no clue where you're plucking your ideas about Thief magic systems from, because it goes directly counter to the IN-GAME PRECEDENTS.

Oh, and the Hammers ARE basically the Thief version of the medieval Church.

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I'm always happy to learn for without learning, One is forever as stupid as the day one was born.

... yeah.

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... a BIT MORE? Friend, the Maw is another PLANE. Dimension, world, whatever - it's the Trickster's Realm. It's not part of the world.

Are you SURE you've played these games?

Quote Posted by jtr7

Well, only by basically sacrificing everything she was - I mean, you've got to figure that she was hoping to come out of it alive, until it reached that point - hence the 'I'm not so assured of victory' and her nervousness overall regarding face-to-face battle.

Ah well.

.j.

ManicMan on 12/3/2009 at 09:00

okay, okay, no need to shout and insult...oh and which medieval church? there were quite a few depening on which country's medieval area, though i always found that term a little.. ify because of how much change duing the period.. but that's a different topic for a completey different place..

I can't quite see wheremy magic theory's counter the ones stated in the games.. and yes, i have played them.. been playing thief for about 9 years now. Again, just cause you think my views are a complete load and should be corrected, there is no need to insult. Just simpley explain where i am wrong with your fact and theory to back it up and i'm more then happy to learn. And sorry you haven't read Lewis Carroll's work (the comment 'a bit more'), it was maybe an understatment but that's about it. And i don't quite remember any thing SAYING (without doubt) the Maw is a different plane or dimension (there is a difference between the two.. a different dimension would pretty much be made up of different planes like the Physical plane, the spirit plane etc) though there are clear hints it isn't some place easy to see.. though i always thought (even more so after the Events of T: DS) that the Maw could in fact be a more highly magical place instead the world, like in the many classic fiction ideas of a past world instead the heart of the planet. DS seam to comfirm this idea for me because of how the Keepers access and use there areas, seamingly very much like how the Trickster accessed and used his.. anyway, feel free to show me where i'm wrong.

jtr7 on 12/3/2009 at 09:41

Heh. Yeah, Sola', my point was she was still that powerful away from her home in the Maw.:cheeky:

I haven't been participating fully in this thread 'cause I could see the negative resistance was just gonna be grating. When even plain facts are discarded, you know it's trouble.

This was composed while you posted the above, so it's a little out of context.
ManicMan, the rust-gas was going to destroy all organic material, live or dead, starting with PEOPLE in their HOMES, everything it touched made of cotton, hemp, ropes, arrow shafts, bows, leather products, fruits, vegetables, all animals, crates and barrels, grain, bread, cheese, all wooden rafters, balconies, window and door frames, doors, beams, joists, docks, vessels docked to close to the piers, bridge-works, gardens, lawns, the forests, the root systems and worms within them, mosses, lichens, turds, burricks, craymen, spiders, and zombies. Anything organic the rust-gas touches makes more rust-gas. Lofted on a breeze, blown by the wind, it could travel just far enough to react with more organic matter before it became inert and settled into dust. The natural rocks, the mountains, the River, the seas, and the earth below the destruction would remain.

The games tell you how the Thief Universe works, and it is different than what you've injected into it. It's better to start with what Thief actually says, then work outward to a broader fan-idea. It's an great amalgam of many many things, and only a little at any time can be pinned down to anything real on an example-by-example basis. As a whole there is nothing like it.

Quote Posted by ManicMa

DS seam to comfirm this idea for me because of how the Keepers access and use there areas, seamingly very much like how the Trickster accessed and used his.. anyway, feel free to show me where i'm wrong.

We'll cover everything eventually. There's so much, and if I point to the true in-game info, I hope you won't dismiss it as fan-made (!), again. There are no portals in TDS, all portal-like walls of blue-fog are just loading zones with special effects made with the XBOX in mind. The Door Glyphs that make wall-like doors disappear has absolutely nothing in common with the Woodsie-type portals, and there is no long-distance teleportation with them. The Woodsie portals are true holes in the fabric of space, and connect areas many meters apart, cross planes, and apparently connect across kilometers (or many many many meters).

Quote Posted by Zechs Zero

It took 1 mission for Garrett to straighten up Ramirez: against Truart, much more time.
Evidence against Truart is found as soon as mission 3, even though Garrett could have just get it over with and go to Stuart Estate and take whatever he wanted.

What evidence about what? He had no intention of straightening Truart up. There was no murder attempt on Garrett by anybody in Framed. The scandal Truart feared was not yet known for Garrett to use, or motivate himself to go after Truart. Garrett would never take someone down just to save informants, smugglers, and other thieves. And the ambush came sometime later, after Framed, and it could've been weeks later. Nobody said Truart was HIRED to kill Garrett until after Ambush!, and the only motive at that point seemed to be revenge for the job Garrett pulled against the City Watch. Eavesdropping was when Karras was finally shown in full light. We hadn't seen Truart was rounding up "vagabonds, street scum, prostitutes...those who will not be missed by anyone of consequence," and trading them for money, knowing what Karras was doing with them. Garrett should've known by then. The Bank job and Blackmail were the filler part of the story of the first act. Garrett wasn't out to kill Truart, ever, nor JUST steal from him for revenge, he still didn't know what the player had guessed already. There was no need yet to show him up, as the threat to himself as a Thief wasn't big enough yet. I would guess he wasn't worried that his competition was being removed (and many were being hired as City Watchmen--perhaps because it takes a thief to catch a thief? Heh heh.), and really just bothered that he had to keep such a low-profile that he couldn't make rent without going for the easy pickings--beneath a Master such as himself.

Zechs Zero on 12/3/2009 at 13:17

Quote Posted by jtr7

Garrett wasn't out to kill Truart, ever, nor JUST steal from him for revenge

Indeed assassination is out of the question, as Garrett plays on expert. Now I can't remember every single text up to mid Framed, but it was quite clear to me that there was a crackdown on crime in the City and Truart was on the payroll of someone shady.

My problem is not that Garrett chose to blackmail Truart only a bunch of missions later, but that it didn't occur him to frame the guy (No 1 target) when he was already framing another close collaborator of him working next door.

ManicMan on 12/3/2009 at 15:38

ah, jtr7 you have done it! Nicely and calmly stated stuff backed up. Very well done and thank you. I shall now get out my text editor (or just used Notepad) and read everybit of text i can find in the Thief 1 and 2 files... or atlest, when i get the chance and i will start from scratch with my thinking.

That's how people should get along. passing comment and theory (who was it they said there is no such thing as a stupid theory no matter how wrong?) without problem or shouting or anything.

jtr7 on 12/3/2009 at 15:42

Whew! Check the (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Resources) Resources pages at the Wiki until you learn to navigate your game files. Almost all of the conversation sound files have been transcribed so you don't have to listen to each one one at a time to figure anything out.

Zechs Zero: Avoiding a total rewrite from the ground up... Not to say someone shouldn't do a total rewrite, but plucking out canon and discarding it while trying to leave the rest is like playing Jenga, but with much worse odds the structure will fail completely. ;)

Frame the guy with what? Tell the Baron off at war with Blackbrook that Truart's running The City his own way without his Lordship's permission? No one was concerned about the pagan genocide aspect until the end of Trace the Courier. Karras didn't say he wanted pagans, so I don't know who Garrett would be framing Truart to protect or with what? Everybody on the City Watch knew what Truart was doing was some kind of wrong, except Hagen, Mosley's biggest threat. If Mosley was already in contact with her pagan co-conspirator (she had been for sometime, but we don't know the timetable), then it would be more in-line with what's already plainly established for Hagen to be removed, so when Truart was taken out, Lt. Mosley would fill in, not Hagen. We didn't know Truart was giving prisoners over to Karras for money until Eavesdropping, so what's the scandal? If Garrett's life had been threatened before Shipping, perhaps Garrett would care to take action?

"Hagen is Sheriff Truart's number two man and has no doubt made life difficult for someone he shouldn't have."

"With both Hagen and Truart out of the picture, you can expect little trouble from the City Watch from now on."

I would like to know how you figured Karras was buying Truart with only the introduction of the factions up to that point. Did you look at the game-files before you played Framed? Here a clue outside the game? I believe it's possible you figured it out first, but I'd still like to know what made you KNOW.

In-game connections between Truart and Karras up to Framed were:

1. Running Interference: "Chronicle of the Metal Age"; A mention of Basso's imprisonment in Cragscleft (known by players of TDP to be Hammer-controlled, but not necessarily yet by new players of Thief starting out with TMA); Truart, the Sheriff, causing servants to fear to say the wrong thing when life was looking better when crime ruled, plus the Mechanist gear shrine near that servant's quarters with the note about Truart and his thugs.
2. Shipping... and Receiving: The briefing has a relatively benign Mechanist quote attributed to Karras; Truart is coming down hard on Garrett's competition, so he's laying low, and bummed he's doing easy jobs just to make rent; The bullying Mechanists are taking over Rampone's, displacing tenants and crated-up goods out of the warehouses; Cid Capezza acts like a thug to Jerm, while Truart as "Druart" is visiting the secret brothel and another customer is a suspected undercover bluecoat; Mechanist inventions with sinister purposes, creeping all but Kilgor out, and their factories killing off life with toxic pollution, while Kilgor thinks the Mechanists are being helpful; Brother Uriel is unhappy with that heretic false prophet he doesn't name, and the lies, greed, and deceit of the new Mechanist movement; Mechanist technology on the rise, metal everything, plants killed off, "plans to improve the City."

Now then, here the hints are much greater, but Garrett's not here to kidnap anyone, or kill anyone (the objectives allow it but it's not a goal), and the Sheriff isn't there, anyway. He's been hired to do a job, and he'll help himself to other items along the way. Get rid of the sheriff outright and half the game is gone. Go ahead and write (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108073) an all new story onto the first eight maps. Please. Seriously. Help! :angel:

3. Framed: "TO SHAPE MAN OR METAL TO THY WILL THOU MUST STRIKE WITH FORCE — COLLECTED SERMONS OF KARRAS"; Truart The first double Collector Tower array with a long zaparc passing between them; another Watcher and two functioning turrets; metal buildings and other structures everywhere at the Shoalsgate Prison compound; Brother Artus finished installing the Watchers, suggests a City Watchman attend the Seminary to learn about the devices; new renovations and additions, new Vault, new Secure Records; major hint: the desired eradication of all "Pagans"--nevermind that a warehouse guard in the previous mission spat the word out like a curse, and players of TDP/Gold would believe pagans are bad guys, anyway; Lady Rampone claims to be "a personal friend of Father Karras. He has a great deal of influence, you know. Where do you think all your fancy new devices came from?"--but isn't he doing this all over The City? A noblewoman with a basement shrine is "friends" with Karras, who's followers are building and innovating aggressively all over The City? Did you KNOW or have a hunch? Saw the plot device coming a mile away? Plausible.:)