dexterward on 10/9/2011 at 10:38
....continuing....Quote Posted by N'Al
I still loved the games. Doesn't mean I can't see and discuss the flaws in the games, though.
Nothing wrong with it - but also nothing wrong with games being challenging and using certain combat systems that might be out of fashion now but still have quite a few fans. Also, you cannot approach a game of AD&D complexity and not put some time into reading the manual, which back in the day was quite a pleasant experience in itself.
I recommend the (
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/drakensang-the-river-of-time) Drakensang games to any fans of Infinity Engine - modern (well, 3D) graphics but all the old school systems we loved are in place. First, The Dark Eye, is bit rough around the edges & for the hardcore, but the prequel got high scores and was very well received. Very charming world of Aventuria (yes, same that Realms of Arkania ;) with pausable combat, crafting and great character development.
That -5 armor thingy was in every Gold Box game, it`s the dreaded To Hit Armor Class Zero system - which frankly I`ve never really completely understood. It`s not that relevant though - lower is better and it looks sorta more badass...haha so your Armour is boring 38? Mine`s cool
minus nineThirith on 10/9/2011 at 10:53
Quote Posted by dexterward
Nothing wrong with it - but also nothing wrong with games being challenging and using certain combat systems that might be out of fashion now but still have quite a few fans. Also, you cannot approach a game of AD&D complexity and not put some time into reading the manual, which back in the day was quite a pleasant experience in itself.
The problem with especially the first
Baldur's Gate isn't so much that it's challenging and uses an old-fashioned combat system - it's that the game itself isn't particularly good at providing feedback or other hints that help you understand why you're being clobbered by three kobolds armed with rickety bows and arrows. It's a design flaw - in a game such as a wRPG, trial and error doesn't make for particularly riveting gameplay, and it definitely doesn't make for a particularly good learning curve. If the game was clearer at the beginning or at least provided more specific feedback, it wouldn't feel random, as it does and did to a fair number of newcomers to D&D.
It's similar to the Elder Scrolls games' RPG system, where what's going on under the hood can seriously screw you while the game seems to tell you, "That's a valid way of playing the game - continue doing this!" - until you've levelled up a couple of times and realise that your stealthy, smooth-talking rogue simply can't beat any of the opponents the game throws at him. Again, bad design.
N'Al on 10/9/2011 at 11:32
Thirith pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's not so much that the IE games are challenging, but that the underlying rules are kept pretty much obscure (although they did improve with each iteration, imo, IWD2 was certainly the least so in that regard).
I managed to get past this, hence I now love the games, but I can certainly see why a newcomer might struggle.
dexterward on 10/9/2011 at 11:55
I`d have to replay some IE games (been a decade) to go really in-depth on topic - pardon eventual errors - but I do remember it having a window with all the actions described. Yeah ok - it might be daunting for a novice to decipher what the hell "Save vs Spell" means, but this goes back to RTFMing. And the fact that it might or might not make sense to some folk goes back to the rolling dice/chance argument - which I myself don`t have a problem with. Yes, it`s abstract and maybe imperfect, but how else do you define such megacomplex (it only looks simple on surface) action as sword attack?
Sure, it`s different times now, but (as you know) when it was released in 1998 gamers were brought up on a diet of games that are considered "hardcore" now -strategies, flight sims, turn based Rpgs etc. In fact Baldur`s Gate combat was considered dumbed down and too accessible by a large part of the community at the time. And that`s what it succeeded in: by making it real-time ("like Diablo guys!") it really got masses of new people into RPGs (alongside gfx & speech of course). So complaining about its accessibility in 2011 is a bit out of place.
Elder Scrolls combat/leveling has bucketloads of issues (one being the fact that Oblivion`s is completely broken) but I`d say it`s another giant topic ;) BG`s system, once you get used to it makes a lot of sense.
Vernon on 10/9/2011 at 12:13
Shit game tho. Well the first one anyway
N'Al on 10/9/2011 at 12:17
Quote Posted by dexterward
I do remember it having a window with all the actions described.
That's exactly it. The information was represented in a pretty small text box (which, admittedly, you could enlarge, but then most of the main screen was obscured), as opposed to it being available on the main screen. This is where IWD2 was an improvement, for example; each time an enemy spellcaster cast a spell there would be floating text above his head to tell you which spell that was (dependent on your group's skills in spellcraft, I believe, but definitely there). So the information is definitely there, but just not particularly accessible.
Quote Posted by dexterward
So complaining about its accessibility in 2011 is a bit out of place.
No it's not. These accessibility issues existed in 1998 (although you might not have been as conscious of them then), they still exist now. So there's no reason not to discuss them. Sure, the fact that the game was made in 1998 means these issues are much more excusable than they would be in a game made today, but that doesn't mean they're not there.
dexterward on 10/9/2011 at 13:04
Small text box vs small floater? I`d say you`re nitpicking here mate - but then ok, let`s say it is progress. Which is exactly why blaming them now doesn`t make sense to me - these games evolved from standard of turn based ADHD&D so automatically it`s a giant leap already (for me for the worse but nevermind). And then they evolved over the span of other IE games (hence the floater) and later into Neverwinter Nights family.
What I`m saying is you can`t have everything in one go...it`s the same for any genre. Wolf 3D wasn`t exactly DX:HR either (inb4 you can`t compare thaaat !!!11110001!)
Sure, I`m all up for pointing flaws etc - like I said I`m not even the greatest fan of IE, especially combat - but let`s have some perspective.
N'Al on 10/9/2011 at 13:30
Quote Posted by dexterward
Small text box vs small floater?
I'd say more like hidden away at the bottom of the screen for you to scroll through and find vs right there in the centre of the screen in your face easily available.
And I'd say perspective is
exactly what I've got; pointing out the flaws (which, most importantly might turn off newcomers, which would be a damn shame) whilst appreciating that it's an old game made during a period where these things weren't necessarily at the forefront of designers' minds, hence giving the game more slack than I would the same one made nowadays.
dexterward on 10/9/2011 at 14:11
And I could say a floater might break immersion and clutter already messy combat screen. While glancing at the box when necessary -most of the time you don`t really need to - ain`t that hard.
And while I do see your point, I can not really blame Bioware for not thinking about these hypothetical newcomers from 21st Century. They were busy reinventing the genre and fending off complaints from me and other die-hard SSI fans.
I`d really expect anyone picking a 13 year old game - especially huge Rpg with tactical combat - to realise they might encounter some problems. And, similarly to you they will probably persevere and appreciate these titles. I just wish some of them ventured even further back in time ...beyond the Infinity Engine wall. Games there are as playable and fantastic today as they were back then...sure you have to adjust a little bit but rewards are great. Might spam a little post on the subject when finally finished cleaning the goddamn flat :)
Have a look on any recent Rpg forum and you`ll see that a flawlessly designed Rpg is as rare as a Silver Dragon anyway. Might not even exist...unsurprisingly.
icemann on 10/9/2011 at 17:01
I think the audience they were aiming their game at was quite different to the audience more newer age rpgs are aimed at. The games industry as a whole has changed a HELL of alot from the late nineties to present day.
A significantly larger percentage of people play video games compared to back then. And so as a result the needs and expectations have changed, hence why you don't find too many hardcore western rpg games these days.
