Thirith on 16/9/2011 at 06:33
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
i disagree. starting the game a second time around youve got a sense of whats good and what isnt. ... knowing how things work makes the beginning 1000 times smoother.
And that's exactly the point that I - and others - have been making: even if you read the manual, you won't know these things as a first-time player unfamiliar with the ins and outs of D&D. If a game is more difficult at the beginning than later on, that's a pretty silly learning curve. Obviously a player will understand a system better the longer he plays, but this should always be offset by balancing the difficulty level. Also, it'd be easy enough to simulate the more lenient DM guiding his level 1 heroes through their first steps, helping them understand the system while being lenient with them. This doesn't dumb the game down - if anything is dumb, it's a game that primarily teaches the player the importance of Quicksave and Quickload in the first hour or that makes them feel they're entirely at the mercy of invisible dice rolls.
UnrelatedComa on 16/9/2011 at 08:28
Quote Posted by Thirith
And that's exactly the point that I - and others - have been making: even if you read the manual, you won't know these things as a first-time player unfamiliar with the ins and outs of D&D.
two issues. avalon appears to be talking about the way the system works while the point others were arguing was ignorance of lore.
Thirith on 16/9/2011 at 09:25
Two sides of the same coin - although the silver dragon thing has been latched on to and blown out of proportion. There may be some D&D-specific lore that wasn't communicated particularly well in the old games, but generally a lack of exposition wasn't that much of an issue in the Black Isle/Bioware D&D games.
N'Al on 16/9/2011 at 10:46
Quote Posted by Thirith
Two sides of the same coin
Indeed.
Quote Posted by Thirith
the silver dragon thing has been latched on to and blown out of proportion.
Indeed again.
I mentioned both the silver dragon and the text box at the bottom of the screen as lore and system examples of where I felt the IE games where teaching a (first-time) player badly. The fact that this
still needs to be pointed out - five days after the event! - is quite telling, imo.
I simply don't get the impression that UnrelatedComa is willing or able to understand this (Note: I said understand, not accept! Important difference.) and debate accordingly. That's all I've been asking for ever since I made my original post; discuss the issue at hand and not argue past it all the time by setting up strawmen and the like.
Instead, we get stuff like
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
n'al you talk and argue about BG the exact same way my friend does about anything. id swear he was on here posting if i didnt know he hates PC gaming.
and dexterward
leaving these boards after going on about the Gaming Police and how we're not allowing anyone to like old games (funnily enough, this was after telling me that
I was overreacting).
For the record: I'm currently playing Ultima Underworld and enjoying it immensely. There's flaws in it I could go into, but I won't since it'll likely just start another shitstorm, which I have no interest in whatsoever.
Seriously, sometimes I think this board should just have a 'Despair' smiley, and then we'd be done with it.
Sulphur on 16/9/2011 at 10:53
But we do like old games, hell we're pretty much a board of stuffy old game gamers.
dexterward left because he felt he was arguing at brick walls, which is a rather stupid thing to do because of a difference of opinion.
Al_B on 16/9/2011 at 11:10
Quote Posted by N'Al
For the record: I'm currently playing Ultima Underworld and enjoying it immensely. There's flaws in it I could go into, but I won't since it'll likely just start another shitstorm
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it anyway - here or in the (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=151) UW forum which doesn't exactly have a surplus of posts these days...
Kuuso on 16/9/2011 at 11:48
Wow, how can a thread like this create such drama. Also how childish can a man be to leave the boards because he's confronted with an opposing opinion (and conviently turning it into "world vs me").
Continue, I'm enjoying my popcorn.
N'Al on 16/9/2011 at 11:49
@ Al_B:
Ok, I'll put some thoughts together once I've completed it (although I can't promise when that'll be, necessarily :p).
Al_B on 16/9/2011 at 12:23
Excellent. I can think of a few flaws myself but it's always interesting to find out what people who have only played it recently think about it. After having played it so many times it's difficult to look at it with fresh eyes.
Yakoob on 16/9/2011 at 14:10
Quote Posted by Phatose
A first level mage can cast a spell one time. A level two mage can do it twice. I'm pretty sure both of those spells can be saved against, and they'll be lost if you get hit while casting - typically along with your life. That's if you win initiative and manage to get off the spell before the enemy.
That's not strategic adaption, that's praying for divine intervention.
Oh god, THIS. My biggest gripe playing a low-mid level wizard in DnD. Either you end up saving for big bosses, meaning you are a useless party member, or your gameplay ends up like this:
Kill two thugs. Rest. Advance 10 meters. Kill two thugs. Rest. Advance 10 meters. Kill two thugs. Rest. Advance 10 meters. Kill two thugs. Rest. Get ambushed with no spells. Die. GG
